Is PADI popular because it's cute?

[Hoomi]

You know, as much as I enjoyed our OW course, I do have to agree that the swimming requirements for the PADI OW course were a bit lax. I don't know if greater distance or a time requirement or other such criteria would be helpful, but I do know that one of the guys in our class barely managed to complete the swimming requirement, and did not seem comfortable in the water at all during it. It really made me wonder why he was pursuing scuba diving if he could barely manage to swim a set number of laps at the surface of a pool.

It's not so much about showing we can swim a given distance, but (IMO) about demonstrating that we can be relaxed in the water. The instructor should be able to see that we are not viewing the water as our enemy; that we understand how to work with the water and that the most basic task - that of simple locomotion - isn't a struggle for us.

I wonder if, perhaps, things should be changed around a bit. While I know the business end of things would object, I think it would be better for a place that offers dive training to have a swimming skill check session that prospective students must complete BEFORE signing up and paying for their class. It might not change much, but it seems it might be easier to tell someone they really need to spend more time in a pool, getting comfortable and competent as a swimmer, before taking scuba lessons if there isn't any thought of having to refund class fees that have already been paid.

There will always be those who just manage to squeak by in any training. The old joke is, "What do you call the guy who finished last in his medical school class?"

Answer: "Doctor."

As much as I hate the idea of fueling additional PADI bashing, in fairness I have to admit. That guy who barely managed to complete the swimming portion of our OW class did pass the class, but neither my wife nor I would ever want to have him as a dive buddy. Neither his swimming skills, nor his performance in class, inspired much confidence, but he did pass the course. He passed the tests and completed the required skills, but not in such a way that left me thinking I would be comfortable diving with him.

 

[Walter]

The 200 yard swim was not optional for our instructor. We had to do it to go any farther.

Then you had a better than average instructor. OTOH, PADI allows the optional snorkel and it can be completed any time prior to actually issuing the card.

 

[Walter]

Really?

Really.

I guess my OW instructor just went beserk and added a lot of things.

I hope so, that can turn it into an excellent class.

Our class had to complete a mandatory swim before we started skills training. We retrieved bricks from the bottom of the pool (free diving), swam for distance under water, and we covered basic (though thorough) rescues and tows.

Good for you and good for your instructor, that greatly exceeds PADI standards.

I have no idea what a "confidence building skill" is, because in my opinion ANY skill that increases knowlege and proficiency naturally tends to build confidence.

Things like doff & don, bailout, etc.

My fellow OW students and I felt perfectly safe taking what we had learned and went out diving together, though we followed the OW "prime directive"...we always stayed within our training as we gained experience. With more experience, we were ready for the next level of certification and moved along, repeating the learning cycle.

I'm very happy to hear it.

That's what I believe PADI philosophy is...learn, practice, learn more, practice more.

No, that's nothing like PADI's philosophy, but it sure sounds like it is your instructor's.

Some have problems with that philosophy, instead feeling that the first course should be sufficient for nearly every situation and environment (or at least a lot more of them). I don't have a problem with that. The differences in philosophy are simply that--differences--and they do not merit flames.

I know of no one who believes a newly certified diver should be able to handle nearly every situation and environment, but they should be able to handle the ones they are likely to encounter.

It sounds to me like many people want the initial class to be harder

You missed the boat on that one. The more comprehensive approach is actually easier.

 

[Nemrod]

Soutsidescubatsteve, thanks, your post was useful to me. Sorry if I sound difficult. I think the concept or definition of "swim" and "swimmer" that I have is different from that which PadI adheres to. I do not mean this to be harsh but having observed many divers it is my opinion that many are non swimmers though I am sure they think they swim just fine, they don't. Invariably when I find out more about these non swimming divers I discover that they had a PadI resort course or some other PadI weekend course. Yes, to be fair, I am sure PadI means that to be a teaser, a wet the appetite, an introduction but for 95% it ends there---they think they are good to go--anywhere, anytime. I am heartened to see that the Y has decided to re-enter the scuba instruction field with a six to eight week Scuba Instruction course.

For the record, my opinion and nothing more, 200 yards is not much of a swim, it should be more like 400 yards by the end of the course and it should be done without the snorkel or swim aids and I do believe that a survival float or other drown proofing instruction is important to people who play in, on and under the water and that it should be done as part of the swim test. People want everything and they don't want to have to work for it, sorry, this is a low enough hurdle that anyone really interested or half interested could cross over, if not they should take up golf or knitting.

N

 

[NudeDiver]

I think it's ridiculous to claim that if you can't swim 200 yards or whatever then you can't swim.

 

[Hoomi]

Perhaps we need to clarify how we are using terms. In particular, it seems we may have a disparity between "swimmer" as in, "knows how to swim", versus "swimmer" as in, "swims regularly enough to have some endurance and confidence in the water."

It's the same thing as running. I know how to run, but since running/jogging isn't something I enjoy, I don't consider myself a runner. I will do okay for a very short distance, but compared to someone who is a "runner", I'm going to fall behind very quickly. I haven't worked the muscles and built the endurance a true runner is going to have. I don't even have the kind of endurance a casual runner would have.

Now, a bicycle? That's a different story. I enjoy riding and have ridden enough to be able to handle a decent distance. Even though I haven't ridden much this year at all, I could still get on my bike and go out for a 25 mile ride without any problem. I'm no Lance Armstrong, but I have the muscles, the cardio conditioning, and the knowledge it takes for longer bike rides.

I think this is the same concept we're looking at with swimming. It's not just whether a person knows how to move their arms and legs to propel themselves through the water, but whether they've done that enough recently to reasonably handle some of the potential rigors of diving. Yes, it's easier with the fins and the BC, but what if we lose the equipment? It might not be very likely it will happen, but when we're on a dive boat, miles from shore, it's only prudent to have a certain level of competence in the water. If 200 yards in a swimming pool is a struggle, what is that person going to do if they need to swim 500 yards in the open ocean, with potential swells and currents?

I've mentioned in other threads that we need to be proactive on our own educations. Regardless of whether the certifying agency and/or instructor is giving us everything we need to know or not, we need to put the effort into both learning and applying that knowledge. The most comprehensive course in the world is fruitless if we disregard the lessons as soon as we no longer need to "pass the test", and we're certainly not limited to only what information is given us in a less comprehensive course - IF we choose to research and learn on our own.

We're also certainly not limited to only swimming distance when it's required for a course. It behooves us to spend time swimming laps in a pool, and engaging in other strength-building activities so that we are mentally confident and physically capable of handling the potential mishaps.

 

[Hoomi]

For the record, my opinion and nothing more, 200 yards is not much of a swim, it should be more like 400 yards by the end of the course and it should be done without the snorkel or swim aids

I agree with one exception: corrective lens masks.

My wife wore her mask for the swim evaluation, solely for the reason that, without her corrective lenses, she is effectively blind. In a pool situation, she would have difficulty seeing the sides to know when she needed to turn around on each lap.

This really didn't help her swim. It just kept her from bashing her head into the side of the pool.

Such exceptions would, of course, be at the discretion of the instructor, and granted on a case-by-case basis.

The longer swim? There is definitely a merit to that idea, and as I mentioned earlier, I don't think it would be a bad idea at all to have that evaluation before we're even allowed to sign up for the class. If our local colleges can require prerequisites before enrolling in a class (and requiring proof of compliance with the prereqs), I don't see what scuba courses can't follow the same model. Don't just ask me if I can swim; tell me that, even if I'm Michael Phelps, I have to get in the pool and demonstrate it.

 

[Divedoggie]

I think it's ridiculous to claim that if you can't swim 200 yards or whatever then you can't swim.

Based on some people's arguments, Michel Phelps only won one legitimate Olympic swimming medal. Anything 200 meters or less wouldn't really count as a swim.

Michel Phelps Olympic Medals:
Date Event Medal
08/09 6:50 PM Men's 400m Individual Medley -- Heat 4
08/10 10:04 AM Men's 400m Individual Medley -- Final
08/10 7:21 PM Men's 200m Freestyle -- Heat 8
08/10 8:46 PM Men's 4 x 100m Freestyle Relay -- Heat 1
08/11 10:19 AM Men's 200m Freestyle -- Semifinal 2
08/11 11:27 AM Men's 4 x 100m Freestyle Relay -- Final
08/11 7:32 PM Men's 200m Butterfly -- Heat 6
08/12 10:16 AM Men's 200m Freestyle -- Final
08/12 11:10 AM Men's 200m Butterfly -- Semifinal 2
08/12 8:05 PM Men's 4 x 200m Freestyle Relay -- Heat 2
08/13 10:21 AM Men's 200m Butterfly -- Final
08/13 11:22 AM Men's 4 x 200m Freestyle Relay -- Final
08/13 8:07 PM Men's 200m Individual Medley -- Heat 6
08/14 11:09 AM Men's 200m Individual Medley -- Semifinal 1
08/14 8:19 PM Men's 100m Butterfly -- Heat 9
08/15 10:50 AM Men's 200m Individual Medley -- Final
08/15 11:26 AM Men's 100m Butterfly -- Semifinal 1
08/15 8:53 PM Men's 4 x 100m Medley Relay -- Heat 2
08/16 10:10 AM Men's 100m Butterfly -- Final
08/17 11:07 AM Men's 4 x 100m Medley Relay -- Final

 

[Guba]

One particular dive friend, a scuba instructor, and I had a conversation about the "swim test" issue. I felt much as Nemrod...that 200 yards, untimed and with virtually any stroke, was not much of a qualifier. The instructor agreed, but added this perspective: the swim "test" wasn't designed to be a hurdle that people had to pass so that they could progress. Instead, it was more of an opportunity for dive instructors to watch their new students and evaluate their skills and comfort levels in the water. If a student struggled, that was a signal that additional training would be necessary, which might include swimming instruction, physical conditioning, or additional tutorials in scuba skill sets. At the worst, an instructor might have a student re-evaluate the wisdom of seeking scuba certification at all (don't laugh...I saw it happen). Looking back at it, I remember how the instructors and DM's watched us while we swam. Now, I don't know if that attitude is prevalent in PADI or any other agency, but it made sense to me. We did exactly the same thing with Boy Scouts, Campfire campers, and other youth groups at summer camps when we had them do swim tests.
By the way, Nemrod, I do agree with your philosophy concerning water sports and the ability to swim, survive, and self-rescue. However, if that instructor was correct, then a 200 m swim should be enough to allow a pretty fair evaluation of comfort in the water.
And while I know it happens, I've never seen a three day cert class in my life, and a quick poll of my dive friends produced no one who has been through one. I don't know any instructor that offers such a thing in my neck-o-the-woods. Is that prevalent elsewhere? If so, where?

 

[NudeDiver]

I remember when I certified as a lifeguard through American Red Cross, the "entrance exam" was something like 500 yards in 15 minutes (was 1991, so my memory may be a bit foggy - don't jump all over me). Yeah - I passed. However, I still SUCKED at swimming. Even after the class, I still SUCKED at swimming - even though I was the first one to pass the "tread water for 2 minutes with a brick over your head test". Of course, shortly after that, the instructor informed us that it was an error, and we only had to do it for one minute. I felt so ripped off!

Point is, passing a swim test doesn't mean you're much of a swimmer, any more than an OW cert card means you're much of a diver.

And while I know it happens, I've never seen a three day cert class in my life, and a quick poll of my dive friends produced no one who has been through one. I don't know any instructor that offers such a thing in my neck-o-the-woods. Is that prevalent elsewhere? If so, where?

I did my OW class in 2003 in Alaska. It was something like 4 or 5 weeks in length, a few nights per week, plus the open water weekend. My wife did hers in Florida, over the course of three days, including the open water. Day 1 was all of the pool and book work, Day 2 was 2 dives and Day 3 was 2 dives. Is she much of a diver? No. However, she did point out that the dives she did for her cert were much more comfortable than the DSD dives she did 2 years before, because now she had an idea of how the equipment worked, what it was supposed to do, etc.

Now - she did her class in Florida because she didn't want anything to do with our cold water. However, after her Florida experience, she told me, completely on her own with no prodding, that she wanted to try diving up here. Good for her!! So, she needed a drysuit class - but because she had not been diving for a year, since her OW class, I thought it would be good for her to dive with an instructor for some tune up. After discussion with instructor, we agreed that the AOW class and drysuit class would be the way to go. Six dives, two certs, all dives with an instructor, rather than with me. So, a few months ago, she did the classes in our fine, fine cold water. So, here she is, with a total of 10 dives. I bet she has a lot more control and comfort than someone who only did 4 dives through a 4 week class...but that's just a guess. Point is, you can make up for a short class by getting some diving experience.

If she had to endure a 4 or 5 week class before ever getting to go diving at all, she may not have bothered. Some of you may argue that's a good thing, but I'll disagree, in terms of it being good for her, good for me, good for us, and good for the sport. For example - I decided to sign up for a Rescue Diver class recently, and my primary motivation is that I'll be diving with my wife and I want to be as prepared as possible should something happen. I think that's good for me, good for her, good for my usual dive buddy (who I'm likely to go diving with a lot more than my wife), good for anyone in the area where I'll be diving and good for the sport - or so I hope. So, the indirect result of my wife taking a 3-day resort OW class is one more Rescue Diver in the water. Make of it what you want, but I see it as a good thing

FWIW, AFAIK, no one up here teaches a 3 day class. Sort of a "get certified while on holiday" thing. I think it's mostly a warm water diving resort area thing.