Is PADI popular because it's cute?

[Guba]

Sure, off the top of my head... They've made swimming optional. They have almost no required skin diving skills. They have almost no rescue skills. They have no confidence building skills.Walter

Really? I guess my OW instructor just went beserk and added a lot of things. Our class had to complete a mandatory swim before we started skills training. We retrieved bricks from the bottom of the pool (free diving), swam for distance under water, and we covered basic (though thorough) rescues and tows. I have no idea what a "confidence building skill" is, because in my opinion ANY skill that increases knowlege and proficiency naturally tends to build confidence. My fellow OW students and I felt perfectly safe taking what we had learned and went out diving together, though we followed the OW "prime directive"...we always stayed within our training as we gained experience. With more experience, we were ready for the next level of certification and moved along, repeating the learning cycle.
That's what I believe PADI philosophy is...learn, practice, learn more, practice more. Some have problems with that philosophy, instead feeling that the first course should be sufficient for nearly every situation and environment (or at least a lot more of them). I don't have a problem with that. The differences in philosophy are simply that--differences--and they do not merit flames.

 

[NudeDiver]

I'm certainly no expert here - but it seems to me that a large amount of the PADI bashing (not necessarily instructor bashing) is unmerited.

I think of PADI OW as Calculus I. You learn some basic things, some foundation, and can do some basic problems that are not very hard. It prepares you to go on and take Calc II, Calc III and Differential Equations at some point in the future. Taking the additional courses will help you solve harder, less ideal problems.

Likewise, OW teaches you some basic things, some foundation, and allows you to go out and make dives that are not very hard. It prepares you to go on and take AOW, Rescue Diver, and some specialty courses at some point in the future. Taking the additional courses will help you make harder, less ideal dives.

It sounds to me like many people want the initial class to be harder - like cramming Calc I and Calc II into a single course. That's fine - but it's likely many people will drop the class and be turned off from Calc entirely. If the goal is to make the pool of those knowing ANYTHING about calculus smaller, then this can be a good way to go. By the same token, if you make the initial diving class harder, more time consuming and more expensive than it really needs to be to allow people to go out and make basic, easy dives, you're likely to find the pool of new divers to be much smaller than it needs to be. Personally, I don't think that's helpful to the sport.

I've had a crappy instructor, for my Nitrox class in South Beach. PADI's fault? Maybe, maybe not. I think you can have crappy instructors with any agency - just like you can have crappy calculus instructors no matter how elite the university is.

 

[saltybubbles]

The 200 yard swim was not optional for our instructor. We had to do it to go any farther.

 

[Nemrod]

A 200 yard swim, that is 600 feet. That is not enough of a swim to even determine that you can swim.

If you don't know what you don't know then how would you know that you got from your instructor what you didn't know?

N

 

[jamaicancowboy]

I would contend that any open water class (no matter the agency) is intended to be just a first step into becoming a good diver. It's the responsibility of the diver to gain more experience while improving their diving skills by either: 1. getting more dives of various disciplines (night, deep, etc) in their logbook, 2. by taking advanced training (specialties, Rescue, etc) or 3. both. I've heard from 5-6 instructors, of various agencies, that your Open Water cert should be treated like a "learners permit"...you've learned the basics (hopefully from a good, safe instructor), now it's incumbent on the diver to further their own education and experience. My instructor always makes sure to tell students "You have lifetime service with me. If you ever have a diving question, please call me."

I was wondering if a 200m swim isn't far enough for somebody to know whether they can swim or not, then what distance do other agencies require. Also, knowing that PADI requires 4 open water dives, how many dives do the other agencies require? How long is the no-mask breathing skill for other agencies?

Is it fair to judge an agency based on the number of kick styles taught?

 

[Hoomi]

YMCA might offer one of the best scuba training programs, but how many Y's still offer it? I've heard a rumor that the Y is going to get completely out of scuba training, and despite having several different branches of the YMCA here in Tucson, most with nice pool facilities, I haven't seen any listing for scuba classes on the local calendar.

NAUI, according to their website, doesn't have a local facility here in Tucson.

My choice was either the PADI affiliate LDS, or the SSI affiliate LDS.

Did we get the absolute best scuba training available? I guess it depends on how you qualify the question. If you ask if we got the best available anywhere, then I'd have to join in with an overwhelming majority of people here and say "no". Did I get the best available in my local area? To determine that, I'd have to do a comparison between what we received from the PADI course, versus what we would have received from the SSI course. One reason I chose the PADI facility is that their class schedule involved more instruction time than the SSI facility, and I decided less time with the instructor wasn't what I wanted. Maybe I chose wisely, and maybe not. As it stands, I don't have this feeling I was given a "throw 'em in the deep end and they'll either learn or drown" kind of course. Neither my wife nor I felt unprepared for our open water dives, and I don't believe either of us has this feeling that we need an experienced instructor or dive master to follow around for further dives.

Whatever anyone thinks of the quality of their instruction, what PADI has done is find a solid market for the service they offer. For better or for worse, they're accessible and affordable. It's rather difficult for other training agencies to compete if they're not even offering many of us a viable option to PADI or SSI.

 

[Nemrod]

I don't know what the current watered down requirements are, I would say as a WSI Life Guard Instructor in years past that if a person can swim 200 yards in good form using a recognized swimming stroke with no aids (no fins, mask snorkel, no floaties, no wetsuit) and do so without stopping in under 10 minutes and then without stopping go into a survival float for at least 15 minutes then I would qualify them as swimmers (as opposed to non swimmers). That would be my beginning point, any less than that, IMO, that person is a non swimmer. BTW, 200 yards in ten minutes is a pace about equal to a snail and is only four laps of the typical pool, that ain't very much. If a person struggles at that, before taking up scuba, they need to get some swim instruction or at least along with the scuba.
N

 

[jamaicancowboy]

Nemrod - it sounds like you're comparing two different disciplines, scuba diving v.s. lifeguarding, using the same swimming standard. While I would agree that a Lifeguard should be able to swim 200 yards comfortably, I'm not sure that swimming is the role of a diver. I agree that a diver needs to be able to swim, but is it fair for you to compare divers to Lifeguards. I think the water requirements (200y swim, 10 minute tread, etc) are more of a way to see who is comfortable in the water.
I bet if you (as a Lifeguard trainer) and me (as a diver) put our 200y requirement up against a group of Navy SEALS, they would probably refer to both of us as ______ (female reproductive organs).

As far as the no-mask breathing skill time requirement, I've heard that NAUI & SSI either don't require it or that the time is 30 seconds. PADI (a good PADI instructor) requires 60 seconds. I'm not trying to argue the point, but which is better...30, 60 or should it be 5 minutes without a mask?
As a diver, I would be in favor of making the courses a little longer and making the requirements a little harder. While my original intent wasn't trying to become a SEAL, I do want to be a good & safe diver.

 

[Nemrod]

Cowboy, confused or not, if a person cannot swim 200 yards as I described, they cannot swim and IMO if they cannot swim, they cannot scuba dive. As to what modern requirements are, the are all far to lax. People who cannot swim should not be in the water scuba diving. If a person is not interested enough to work up to a minimum standard, then they are not interested in diving. A scuba course that consists of an afternoon in a pool and a voucher is not scuba instruction, it is profit at your expense.

If you think swimming is not the role of the diver as you said, your words, and you cannot swim 200 yards, then YOU should not be in the water.

Why does anything that has to do with scuba or such wind up in some discussion about Navy Seal Teams (again, your words), beats me what they do, but I do know that if YOU cannot swim 200 yards, you are not safe or competent in the water--sorry. If your instructor told you different, he/she is wrong and teaching to such a poor standard that they he should be ashamed.

What if that 700 dollars BC you have rips open and just what if there is a current and just what if your super buddy is not at your side and just what if your weights don't dump and just what happens if a wave breaks over your face and the next thing you see, the last thing you see, is that you are 201 yards from safety? You can argue with me about what Seal Teams can think of me or you till hades freezes over, you are still drowned. N

 

[NudeDiver]

Cowboy, confused or not, if a person cannot swim 200 yards as I described, they cannot swim

Yeah - and if they can't dive to 30m and make their air last 20 minutes, then they can't dive. If they can't drive a stick shift, then they can't drive. If they can't run a marathon, then they can't run. Lather, rinse, repeat.