Is PADI popular because it's cute?

[Walter]

Probably more than those that go the extra mile to do a good job, but those are also very rare. The vast majority follow agency standards, good or bad, to the letter.

 

[leapfrog]

Probably more than those that go the extra mile to do a good job, but those are also very rare. The vast majority follow agency standards, good or bad, to the letter.

If you could qualify your sweeping statements, you would do us all a great service. With all due respect, the instructors would like to turn some people away and do a better job with most of the students. Most instructors work for a DCO. Until the agencies start cracking down on them, the instructors have their hands tied. It's time to stop criticizing the workers and to start to criticize the management. The agencies should get back to supporting the instructors and not the 5 star super resorts.

 

[Walter]

If you could qualify your sweeping statements, you would do us all a great service.

What sweeping statement would you like qualified?

With all due respect, the instructors would like to turn some people away and do a better job with most of the students.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

Most instructors work for a DCO.

What is a DCO?

Until the agencies start cracking down on them, the instructors have their hands tied.

This makes no sense at all, what do you mean?

It's time to stop criticizing the workers and to start to criticize the management.

I agree. Most (sweeping statement based on my contacts with instructors over the past 25 years) instructors do the best job they know how to do. It's the agencies that are letting them down.

The agencies should get back to supporting the instructors and not the 5 star super resorts.

There's only one agency that has 5 stars in their marketing plan.

 

[jviehe]

Actually, sir, to give Walter, Hoomi and DHMO credit where it's due the situation is worse in many cases.

The kids (10-21) just watch the DVD because they can't read. They watch a chapter and do the quiz. That is not the instructors' fault or the agencies fault. Maybe we should talk not only about schools but about parents who educate their kids in front of a flat screen TV.

The smarter people read the books and you can have interesting class time with them. However every year we get more and more video people and less people who know how to read.

The other thing that has changed a lot since I was a kid is that even filling in a registration form seems like a major "overload" for some people. A lot don't even know how to hold a pen/pencil/writing instrument.

Now there are eRDPs so that students don't have to learn how to use a table or a wheel.

Maybe I'm just old fashioned...... my nearly 17 year old stepson doesn't know if he wants to go to the Naval Academy or compose gangster rap...... now that's my fault!

I have yet to have a dive student who cant read or hold a pen. Regardless, they are required to understand the material well enough to fill out a knowledge review, pass a quiz and test, and demonstrate it in the water. If they can do that, they can dive. No need to add a bunch of boring stuff they dont use. Diving is a hobby not a college degree.

 

[leapfrog]

What sweeping statement would you like qualified? .

The vast majority follow agency standards, good or bad, to the letter.

I have no idea what you are trying to say.

The instructors who are employees at a Dive Center would like to have less students and do a better job. The owners are the ones who cut us short.

What is a DCO?

A Dive Center Owner.

This makes no sense at all, what do you mean?

The agencies should be assessing the way the owners run their centers and not using the instructors as scapegoats.

I agree. Most (sweeping statement based on my contacts with instructors over the past 25 years) instructors do the best job they know how to do. It's the agencies that are letting them down.

No. The agencies aren't letting us down. The Dive Center Owners are letting us down.

There's only one agency that has 5 stars in their marketing plan.

True, the point is however that some agencies make it clear they defend the Centers (SSI) while others continue to pretend to be instructors' associations. However, they all support the Centers, not the Instructors.

 

[leapfrog]

I have yet to have a dive student who cant read or hold a pen. .

Well, I have.

Regardless, they are required to understand the material well enough to fill out a knowledge review, pass a quiz and test, and demonstrate it in the water. If they can do that, they can dive. .

Obviously.

No need to add a bunch of boring stuff they dont use. .

Who said anything about adding boring stuff they don't use?

Diving is a hobby not a college degree.

The hell you say. To dive you don't need to know anything about tides, currents, oceanography, marine biology, simple physics, physiology, mechanics, biomechanics, telecommunications, mathematical algorithms, human psychology. Strange becuase my much criticised agency tells me to make my students AWARE. Sailing is also a hobby. Astronomy is a hobby. Skydiving is a hobby (I'm an AFF Instructor). Some hobbies involve challenging the practioners intellect. It's not just a question of throwing flatliners into the water or out of an airplane, sir.

 

[jviehe]

Well, I have.
Obviously. Who said anything about adding boring stuff they don't use? The hell you say. To dive you don't need to know anything about tides, currents, oceanography, marine biology, simple physics, physiology, mechanics, biomechanics, telecommunications, mathematical algorithms, human psychology. Strange becuase my much criticised agency tells me to make my students AWARE. Sailing is also a hobby. Astronomy is a hobby. Skydiving is a hobby (I'm an AFF Instructor). Some hobbies involve challenging the practioners intellect. It's not just a question of throwing flatliners into the water or out of an airplane, sir.

The comment was made:

I'

d say the PADI Open Water course manual was probably not much higher than third grade reading level, either. While it's good that it's written to be easily understood, it distresses me to think that the scope of human knowledge is more extensive than it has ever been, and yet the mean average of human education is declining.

Mine was a response to that.

 

[Walter]

The vast majority follow agency standards, good or bad, to the letter.

Sweeping statement based on my contacts with instructors over the past 25 years. No studies.

The instructors who are employees at a Dive Center would like to have less students and do a better job. The owners are the ones who cut us short.

That certainly happens, but instructors should not let themselves be pushed into it.

The agencies should be assessing the way the owners run their centers and not using the instructors as scapegoats.

An even better approach is to not allow training to be associated with dive shops, it's a clear conflict of interest.

No. The agencies aren't letting us down. The Dive Center Owners are letting us down.

Agencies are letting us down by writing such low standards. Dive shop owners sometimes pressure instructors to cut corners.

True, the point is however that some agencies make it clear they defend the Centers (SSI) while others continue to pretend to be instructors' associations. However, they all support the Centers, not the Instructors.

Not all of them take that approach. One or two are actually concerned with quality training.

 

[leapfrog]

Sweeping statement based on my contacts with instructors over the past 25 years. No studies.

So it's an opinion based on informal conversations. Not very substantial evidence.

That certainly happens, but instructors should not let themselves be pushed into it..

Instructors have to eat and pay the bills just like everybody else. Unless most of the free world abandons the current capitalist system (which it may eventually do in the light of recent economic events although I doubt it) the workers will have to do what the industry capitalists say (the owners) or lose their jobs.

An even better approach is to not allow training to be associated with dive shops, it's a clear conflict of interest. .

I AGREE 100%. HOW DO WE PUT THAT INTO PRACTICE?

Agencies are letting us down by writing such low standards.

Could you please quote from an Instructor's Manual which standards you are referring to? ..

Dive shop owners sometimes pressure instructors to cut corners...

I would say FREQUENTLY or OFTEN pressure instructors to cut corners.

Not all of them take that approach. One or two are actually concerned with quality training.

How about three or four?

 

[dwhthediver]

Absolutely not. PADI is the largest certification agency for one reason and one reason only. It's the same reason McDonalds is so large. It's fast. Quality is low, but most folks don't care about that, they just want it now.

As a PADI instructor I take offense at that, my students are always prepared and usually turn into really good divers