How do you feel about solo diving?

[Scuba]

You make some excellent points Wreck/Tec, not only for solo diving, but substitute solo for buddy and there is much food for thought for all divers.

With respect to those who think a solo diving course is counter productive, I take exactly the opposite view. When receiving OW training we are all taught to NEVER go into a wreck, a cave, or deep, WITHOUT first receiving proper training. Yet, solo diving is the FORBIDDEN fruit in the garden of diving, I think this is one of the doctrinaire approaches Genesis refers too. Would it not be better to teach new divers to NEVER dive solo until they receive proper training, if they choose to go this route?

Not only that, but these same agencies churn out BUDDY after BUDDY, who lack the basic skills to take care of themselvers, much less anyone else - hypocracy at its finest, luring many into a false sense of security. Also, if they are going to propose buddy diving so strongly, how about a little more emphasys on buddy skills, requirements and demands at the rec level.

Now I know why they recommend two buddy teams, throw in a five buddy team where no-one can take care of themselves or anyone else, and all hell is going to brake loose. This last paragraph is in jest only.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
what I'm pointing out here are hypocrisy and inconsistency in argument.

Mike rails about new divers wanting to dive solo, and points to SDI's solo diver program as an example of the insanity.

The program he cites requires AOW cert AND 100 dives as a pre-requisite, which is certainly not a "newbie" diver!

16% is significant? 160 deaths in 10 years. What's the denominator Milke? Without knowing that, you don't know the risk, do you?

I bet that on further analysis most of that 16% were on "technical" profiles. After all, if you look at just the last 10 years, I bet you can find at least a dozen deaths of people doing solo deep, technical dives. Heck, how many can you find just on the SEEKER doing the Doria - as solo dives?

So what killed them? Was it solo diving? Or was it something that would have gotten them anyway? YOU DON'T KNOW, but you're more than willing to pass judgement on the 16% as being DUE TO THE ACTIVITY.

INVOLVEMENT does not mean CAUSATION.

If you have a coronary at 300', you're cooked no matter if you have zero buddies or five buddies. The only real difference is the likelihood of recovering the body.

You know this, I know this, anyone who THINKS instead of parroting an agency line knows this.

So where's the rub here?

Is solo diving more dangerous than buddy diving? MAYBE.

Why MAYBE? Because if you solo dive with redundant gear, you might well be safter than someone buddy diving WITHOUT it. This is doubly true if the fact that you're diving solo, and thus must be self-reliant, causes you to be MORE careful than you would otherwise be.

Its not so simple as to say "X is more dangerous than Y", because all the factors that go into doing "X" are NOT invarient when the option is "Y".

Are you going to argue that a diver with a newly-minted C-card diving with a buddy is "safer" than a diver with manifolded doubles and 1500 dives doing a solo dive to 60' in open water and with no current? REALLY?

Then how come all the instructors aren't dropping like flies? They are, effectively, solo divers when with students - these are people who lack the skills to rescue them by definition, as they are being trained at the time!

Dogma - religion by another name - has no place in this sport IMHO.

And Mike - I don't solo dive.

I do recognize that it is a legitimate thing for people to choose to do, and that it has manageable risks, just like any other form of diving.

My point about new divers wanting to solo dive has nothing to do with the SDI standards. It has to do with the divers walking in off the street and asking where to sign up. They are there because of the Rodales articles and other advertisement they see for the solo course.

I have had instructors contact me and offer to teach the class for me if I offer it. IMO actively selling solo diving is wrong. I believe the same about other forms of diving as well like cave diving. In fact that is the position of the cave training agencies as well.

When I teach I am not solo. I have other divers with me who were tought to be buddies. If it's an entry level class they haven't had much practice yet but they are there and can help. If I don't feel that they can they won't be in the water.

IMO your making a bunch of moot pints we all realize that an expert may be safer alone than a beginner with a buddy. Got it.

I might be safer at 180ft on air than a new diver at 50 ft.

A really good driver may drive better drunk than many do sober.

How do those points justify either. Is this the logic we want to apply?

"INVOLVEMENT does not mean CAUSATION." Got it so what?

Divers need help all the time. I see it. Divers make bad decisions all the time. I see it. These divers IMO have no business alone and many will meet the requirements of this class. Do you think a two dive class is going to square them away? The class in my opinion is just a token gesture. A way to get around a problem that traveling divers have always had and make a few dollars doing it. IMO, without proof other than having worked with hundreds of divers of all levels if you aren't ready to solo dive this class won't change a thing. Do they have proof of it being a valid system? As I think through the many divers I know and the ones who dive alone (or may want to) I try to imagine any of them taking this class. The only divers I can see taking this class are divers who hear of the rental pony and the new rules that say you can solo if you have this card.

I have already rescued one of these certified solo divers. His tank fell off at depth and he shot to the surface (to his waist) and just floundered until I left my rescue class to go help. He met all the requirements of the class. He did his two dives with his pony. He believed all the junk in the magazines. He still lacked the attitude and the ability. They probably didn't teach it because it's too much like religion.

You may not think this one incedent statisticly significant but this shmuck did.

 

[Genesis]

have you had to "rescue"?

A non-zero number, right?

The sanctimony is out of place in a sport where life is at issue. In either direction. We got "the lecture" about wreck penetration and caves during my OW class, but the instructor didn't make a religious argument out of it, rather Lyn pointed out that there WAS training available, quite a ways down the road, that would deal with the issues and hazards that one would face IF one wanted to do those things.

No sanctimony there with her.

Just facts.

That's how it should be.

 

[GDI]

:doctor:
The question of SOLO diving brings about as much debate as does which reg should you use or which training agency should you receive training by. I do teach solo diving and the real question one must ask themselves is Just how much risk are they willing to accept and are they willing to carry the required equipment . I have dived solo mainly in commercial applications BUT I have surface tenders. I do not suggest that at any time that divers enter into technical diving areas as a solo diver such as caves, wrecks, under the ice or even on extended deep ranges. Most solo divers I know are instructors, photographers, videographers or reseach divers. Instructors by definition of the buddy system in its basic form do dive solo when they have a even vs odd number of students, symantics. My students, I hope, understand the requirement of self sufficiency. I try to ensure that they would have at least some understanding to assist any diver should they be called upon to do so. Their common sense is also a factor in this understanding. I train them to look at diving as a solo responsibility conducted as social event.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The title of the thread is "How do you FEEL About Solo Diving"
I have stated how I feel about it and other industry issues related to it. You can call it sactomoney or whatever you want but it is how I feel. I wasn't born feeling that way about it. My attitudes about it have grown from my experiences in diving. I am not making decisions for anyone else.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Genesis once bubbled...
what I'm pointing out here are hypocrisy and inconsistency in argument.

But what were pointing out here is there is so much hypocrisy and incosistency in your arguments Genesis. You say "I don't dive solo" but you've all but outright advocated it in your posts.

Mike rails about new divers wanting to dive solo, and points to SDI's solo diver program as an example of the insanity.
The program he cites requires AOW cert AND 100 dives as a pre-requisite, which is certainly not a "newbie" diver!

So regardless of experience level - you are saying that the class will then make you a good solo diver? That makes about as much sense as this point you've tried to make:

16% is significant? 160 deaths in 10 years. What's the denominator Milke? Without knowing that, you don't know the risk, do you? I bet that on further analysis most of that 16% were on "technical" profiles. After all, if you look at just the last 10 years, I bet you can find at least a dozen deaths of people doing solo deep, technical dives. Heck, how many can you find just on the SEEKER doing the Doria - as solo dives? So what killed them? Was it solo diving? Or was it something that would have gotten them anyway? YOU DON'T KNOW, but you're more than willing to pass judgement on the 16% as being DUE TO THE ACTIVITY. If you have a coronary at 300', you're cooked no matter if you have zero buddies or five buddies. The only real difference is the likelihood of recovering the body.

If an equal number of buddy divers and solo divers dies of heart attack - that nuetralizes this statistic when comparing the two numbers. Therefore since the vast VAST majority of divers are using the buddy system - since it's advocated by the agencies responsible for handing out over 1.5 million certs a year - and since resorts and boats generally require it, etc, etc. So lets run with that for a second, let's say we use your numbers ... and hypothetically grant 1/2 the solo deaths to heart attacks (no, let's extend that to instant death in any form, with no chance of rescue...) it is only fair and logical to then say 1/2 the buddy deaths must be from the same cause, because it's not the type of diving but a more general human cause. SO WHAT! It doesn't have anything to do with solo being safer, simply because you argue causes from which no rescue is possible. The only numbers we don't have here are preventable solo diving deaths (deaths where no rescuer was available and self rescue was not possible). And clearly in everyone's experience the number of buddy divers outranks the number of solo divers in recreational diving many many many times over. How can you then front solo diving is safer than buddy diving because there are fewer deaths ... ridiculous.

INVOLVEMENT does not mean CAUSATION.
You know this, I know this, anyone who THINKS instead of parroting an agency line knows this. So where's the rub here?

<sigh> meaninglesss interjection <sigh>

Is solo diving more dangerous than buddy diving? MAYBE.

unquestionably, you certainly haven't convinced anyone otherwise.

Because if you solo dive with redundant gear, you might well be safter than someone buddy diving WITHOUT it. This is doubly true if the fact that you're diving solo, and thus must be self-reliant, causes you to be MORE careful than you would otherwise be.

This argues find a better buddy. I buddy offers a full set of redundancy, proven over and over again. I define buddy as someone who is capable of performing those functions for which they were trained by recreational dive agencies and instructors, and for which they have practically demostrated skills, and for which they have routinely dove in actual experience of both this education and practice. And the argument that solo diving causes you to be MORE careful than you would otherwise be ... otherwise be doing what ... not buddy diving. Are you saying that people throw all the skills they've learned out the window because they buddy dive? Give me a break, the majority of skills one practices and must demostrate mastery of even to receive an open water certification are self-reliant skills.

The rest of your post is banter and not worthy of comment.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Genesis once bubbled...
have you had to "rescue"?

A non-zero number, right?

The sanctimony is out of place in a sport where life is at issue. In either direction. We got "the lecture" about wreck penetration and caves during my OW class, but the instructor didn't make a religious argument out of it, rather Lyn pointed out that there WAS training available, quite a ways down the road, that would deal with the issues and hazards that one would face IF one wanted to do those things.

No sanctimony there with her.

Just facts.

That's how it should be.

All of the divers I have rescued/assisted needed help from someone else. Most were not solo at least not by choice. However if you consider that the cert is new and I have already rescued one of them.... (My wife just reminded me of another that she assisted) Well one (or two) could be flyers or it could be the beginning of a trend. Either way in this case the class failed to prepare these divers for a solo dive in a 25 ft deep quarry with good vis, no current, no waves and no cold water. The diver my wife assisted never even began his dive.

But...Since I already stated that solo diving is a choice that I don't really have a problem with someone doing But..that I feel the SDI class to be inadequate and the active promotion of solo diving to be irresponsible...I don't think it qualifies as religion or sanctimony. Based on my considerable experience that is how I feel. I also don't promote cave or tech diving of any kind.

In classes like Advanced Nitrox I teach the use of redundant equipment and self reliance. Through experience I have found that two dives won't get it done for the vast majority. Of the divers I have seen the average AOW diver with 100+ dives would need far more than two dives to qualify if there is such a thing. This is based on experience and skill evaluation in the water.

That is why I believe this class is a token gesture. Two little dives and another card is issued.

A real market for this class is the diver who travels alone and doesn't want to be paired up with a stranger. He flashes the card and niether the diver or the DM need pretend to satisfy the buddy system. It keeps the insurance company off their back and no doubt provides some legal protection to the oporator. The fact is everyone on the boat is being babysat anyway. They are in reality just diving the way they always have.

First off recreational divers don't seem to do well without supervision of some kind (I reference the number of ambulance runs and the I have seen at easy dive sites and the nature of the accidents). I don't believe that these same divers after two dives with a pony bottle will be much better prepared for diving let alone solo diving.

So, I do give my students the facts. I tell them about this class. I tell them my concerns about the class. I also inform them of the incredible coinsedence of how the class seems to have been timed hust right with the magazine articles. I contrast it to other training aimed at preparing a diver to manage problems and be self sufficient.

The subject is something we address in turn it isn't dwelled on. It is only dwelled on in this thread because it is the subject of the thread. I spend way more time talking about overheads. The reason is there are DM's who take new divers into them. I see it as a more urgent risk and try to give student the knowlege they need to make the right decisions inspite of some DM.

Not to give students the benefit of my experience would not be teaching at all.

These are the facts of my experience. It is what I bring to dive training. So far I believe it has helped my students to avoid making many of the mistakes that I have witnessed. You call it sanctimony...ok.

 

[Texass]

These SOLO diver threads are a heck of alot more fun than the old worn out LDS vs. ONLINE ones. At least they're more dramatic.

I have a problem with the lousy buddy argument for a reason to dive solo. If the jerk won't stay comfortably close enough to you, maybe you should change your direction to stay close enough to them. Just a thought.

I've buddied with plenty of newbies that haven't got their basic skills figured out yet without fearing for my life. Yeah, it does effect my relaxation factor a bit to keep a closer eye on them, but to me a bad day diving is better than a good day (insert whatever comes to mind).

On the other hand if I'm the one who needs help, I kind of like the idea of maybe convicing my buddy to lend a hand. They don't have to be Jaque Jr. they just need to understand what I want them to do. If it's just air I'll grab it myself and explain later. (see 2nd paragraph)

 

[Uncle Pug]

I don't even know what this thread is about anymore as I haven't paid much attention since I put in my two cents worth on page one.


Sooo... this may be on or off the topic now...

Yesterday at the local training hole, while talking about our dive over a bowl of clam chowder, we briefly discussed (among other things) buddy skills. I am soon to loose my newbie and want him to at least be grounded in the idea that buddy skills are important.

All of the dive agencies stress that you need to dive with a buddy but which agency(ies) actually teach buddy skills?

Most of the divers I see haven't a clue that there is such a thing as buddy skills. Well there is a definite skill set to be learned.

So you can take a class now on how to be a solo diver but where would you find a class on how to be a buddy diver?

{If no one gets it... I'll post the correct answer tomorrow.}

 

[Genesis]

that skill set in your OW class.

You don't, of course, which is a problem, unless you're conscientous enough to do it yourself.

Witness how many RENTAL reg sets (on which they train you) and how many purchased sets on dive boats that have $20 octos. You know the type - they MIGHT give you a gulp or two of air, MAYBE, they MIGHT have been serviced sometime in the last 10 years, and they MIGHT not be full of sand or mud when you need them.

In my experience diving on cattle boats, which I no longer do (but did when I started) I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of reg sets that had reasonably-identical performing primaries and backups. The shop that I took my training from had two different brands - one had "ok" backups, in that they were all SPs (and SP doesn't make a "horrible" reg) but the other were something else entirely. I had the "pleasantry" of using one for an S-drill with my dive buddy once and was damn near drowned due to rather extreme wet breathing (and in salt water too - yecch!)

Of the people on the cattle boats who owned their own gear, I think I saw perhaps two in all of my dives on them with good-performing backups. Most were the $50 kind, and even better, one guy who showed up without one (it was a requirement on the dive boat) had the crew screw on one of those "flat hockey puck" $50 ones on his kit so he could go diving that day.

Boy, that says a lot about how far beyond LIP SERVICE the folks paid to the ACTUAL requirement for a second air source, doesn't it?

THIS is the "state of the world" when it comes to training.

You want to rail against solo diving when this is reality in the so-called "buddy system" of diving generally? I was effectively diving solo during my OW class, because the buddy I was assigned was simply incapable of being one! What was my option? Refuse to dive with him? That's nice, then I don't get my cert at all, because now we suddenly have the "wrong" number of people in the class. And don't say "your instructor is your buddy", because you and I both know that my instructor is going to be doing something with other people most of the time, and of course Murphy doesn't pay any attention to when you might have an equipment problem.

I do not "condone" solo diving. I don't condone diving at all! Its an inherently hazardous undertaking in all of its forms, and the various combinations of diving and buddies (or lack thereof) is a matter for PERSONAL CHOICE.

My azz, my decision.

Period.