How do you feel about solo diving?

[Genesis]

anything wrong with the course, or the requirements.

Of course it all depends on who is teaching it. Fully redundant kit is a requirement, for obvious reasons. So is treatment and understanding of the risks, which they appear to have covered.

Beyond that, its a choice. A VALID choice. One that is likely no more risky than any other form of technical diving, and certainly no more so than "risky" technical diving, such as cave and wreck penetration dives.

I have a severe problem with the doctrinarian absolutists, whether they be in DIR or "buddy-dive" clothing. The outside layer of those who would preach about diving and dive safety may change, but the bottom line - control - does not.

As for this:

1] People will solo dive reguardless of what the
current doctrine says'
2] Solo diving in general is more dangerous that
buddy diving'
3] If you solo dive you do so at your own risk.\,
4] As long as current doctrine is buddy dive, it's better
not to teach or certify "solo divers," since it encourages
people to solo dive that shouldn't?

I agree with the first three, but would change to #3 to read "If you DIVE you do so at your own risk.", because that is INHERENTLY what is going on and, indeed, it is what we are taught from our very first scuba lesson! What are all those waivers and risk videos about if not this?

As for #4, I disagree. There is no reason to play "doctrine" with diving. In fact, the "doctrine" taught in ALL recreational diving classes includes things that are clearly doctrine rather than truth, including the mystical 60 foot depth limit on a "basic ow card" (which I promptly violated on my first post-certification dive, and proceeded to severely violate over the next 20 or so dives in an increasingly flagarant fashion, to depths reaching 110'.)

The simple fact of the matter is that most of this "doctrine" stuff is wrapped around claims of dire doom while much of the truth is more monetary-oriented (for the dive shop) than anything else. Did I learn ANYTHING from my AOW? Yes - the basics of night diving. The rest? Nope. I already knew how to use a line, how to navigate, how to do a search pattern and how to use a lift bag. How? I taught myself. None of them were difficult. In fact, of the divers in my "navigation" course, which involved navigating based on directions and retrieving "proofs" (if you didn't do it right you didn't get your tag at the end) I was the first back with my tag. Of course navigating with a compass for 30 years ON the water might have had something to do with it. When I was "introduced" to 100' depths, I chuckled - my log already had several 100'+ dives in it. Fortunately, I had an instructor who took the time to talk with me and so we did a few other things that I found of value - a "go touch the bottom at 108'" dive would have been a waste of a perfectly good tank of gas.

Get the doctrine - the religion - out of it. Diving is not a religion, and doctrine has no place in the discussion. We're not talking about the hereafter, we're talking about your life, and if you can't defend your doctrine with FACT then you are putting doctrine ahead of fact, risk assessment and honesty.

None of the above is acceptable when its my tush on the line at 110'.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Well Genesis like usual I disagree with about everything you say.

The 60 foot limit you are tought in OW is not a rule it is a recommendation. They should have left the number out. What we are really suggesting is that you stay shallow for a while. Want some fact? Divers with litle recent experience and training doing deepish dives figure prominently in the DAN accident report. But you were too good to take good advice and you got away with it so you have braging rights. It is however a rule for PADI pros. We can't take OW divers below 60 ft. Since a new card holder has never been below 60 it is recommended he dosn't go yet. The idea is to progress in little steps and preferably with some guidence. Sound advice. You of course were smart enough to not need it. Or was it just lost on you. I think you have a dangerous attitude.


Diving is as much art as science. When I teach I teach the way I do it. The proof is in the way in works. We are under no obligation to present all ideas and methods with equal conviction. Even without statistical proof we are pasionate about what works for us. Along with those methods their is a beliefe system. They go together.

BTW, I haven't found a way to make more money by recommending team diving. But I believe thats what I should teach.

 

[Genesis]

The idea is to progress in little steps and preferably with some guidence. Sound advice. You of course were smart enough to not need it. Or was it just lost on you. I think you have a dangerous attitude.

I think you're a pedantic idiot and a poor businessperson. Not that it matters.

You know NOTHING about the diving environment around here. That much is OBVIOUS. There are exactly TWO places you can dive within the 60' "limit" - one is a wreck, the other is the jetties, which can be EXTREMELY dangerous at the wrong times (unless you like 3 knot+ currents to dive in; outgoing that could leave you somewhere between here and Cuba!)

My first two dives after cert were done on a cattle boat, operating by the same people who trained me. I was perfectly comfortable doing that. The profiles were more aggressive than my training, but not dramatically so. I worked my way up to doing 100-110' profiles over the next couple of months, getting in the water at every opportunity, which is easy when you have your own boat and people to dive with.

Dangerous attitude? Bah. I grew up on the water. I have more respect for the sea than most people I've met. It comes with having some of your friends KILLED by that very same water that you love so much.

Diving is as much art as science. When I teach I teach the way I do it. The proof is in the way in works. We are under no obligation to present all ideas and methods with equal conviction. Even without statistical proof we are pasionate about what works for us. Along with those methods their is a beliefe system. They go together.

Which degrades the discussion down to a matter of which God you worship.

That sucks for something that is, at its core, based on pretty simple scientific principles. Oh sure, we can argue deco theory, but we're not doing that in a recreational diving situation, are we?

You want me to worship your version of "God" when it comes to diving? No thanks. I don't do that stuff when my life is on the line; I'll reserve my religious beliefs for matters of faith that are impossible to prove and my dealing with the hereafter, which I do not intend to cross-check for another 40 years or so.

When it comes to temporal training of various kinds I want to see facts and figures, and I want your positions to be backed by hard science and justification. I grew out of being told what to do as a matter of faith when I was about eight, and you're not putting me back in that box.

BTW, I haven't found a way to make more money by recommending team diving. But I believe thats what I should teach.

No, but you're quite happy to try to derogate other people's way of teaching, and how they make money, even when they can back it up with facts.

The really awful part of it is that this very same practice, when others do it to you, is something you howl about. I do recall a discussion about how cross-subsidizing someone else's training was a horrid thing (and I agree) and how horrible everyone else's classes are (maybe)...

You want to argue that solo diving is dangerous? Fine. Produce your facts. So far it seems to be rather difficult to find the facts to back up your assertions; DAN's statistics say that only about 13% of all fatalities are solo-diving related.

As I and others have pointed out, there are plenty of other activities that are undertaken where a second brain and two more hands would be helpful, general aviation being one of them.

Of course both of these FACTS run contrary to your religious beliefs, so they are dismissed out of hand, even though a real counter-argument has yet to pass your fingers on the keyboard....

As I progress in my diving and choose more challenging dive scenarios I will take training from those who do not expect me to buy into a religion as the price of admission to their class.

Those people may be tough to find, but its knowledge that I seek - not religion.

Religion belongs in a church.

 

[Fetch]

Genesis, that is perhaps the dumbest post I've personally witnessed you making, to date. Ranting on and on about how your life is on the line, blah blah blah. And what are you arguing about? Solo diving. Its been repeated again and again, the answer to safer diving isn't solo diving, and it isn't settling to dive with bad buddies. Its being trained properly, and diving with properly trained buddies, which increases safety. Claim that your solo diving is a result of risk analysis all you want, it rings hollow. Your solo diving (and most people's) comes down to personal convenience and preference.

I really, really hope GUE rolls out an OW course soon, so that maybe a few people like you will "accidentally" receive good training, that emphasizes the benefit of having a likewise well-trained buddy.

 

[DiverBuoy]

Genesis, some of the things you've done, and some of the things you advocate are dangerous. I'm going on record.

 

[Scuba]

Genesis and MikeF,

Gentlemen lets try and keep personal insults out, nothing degenerates a forum such as this one and prevents people from posting than such.

You are both good contributors to this forum, keep the petty stuff out, stick to the issues.

Scuba,

Not a Regulator, but inpersonating one in the absence of one, at the risk of getting caught in the middle.

 

[Wreck/Tec]

I stated earlier, not boasting mind you, that I dove 50% of the time solo. I don't recomend it for everyone. It requires dedication to training, and an investment in higher end gear. I've been reading about why people dive solo. I can't speak for others but I'm always trying something different. I buy new gear and spend time actually manipulating it. Useing it until it becomes second nature so when I do more substantive dives I'm proficient with it and shouldn't expect problems. I enjoy the freedom of setting my own adjenda. Setting the depth or type of dive as I see fit without having to accomodate others preferences. I am comfortable with my ability and equipment. I take care to be redundant in my gear, like lift ability, ( BC, Dry Suit, Lift Bags )I have more than enough air. I dive doubles and carry a 40 as my bail or pony bottle in addition to my mixes. When doing singles, an 80 or a 45 are standard back ups, always with the same regs as my primary system. The Octo is the same as my primary as well. I like to dive reverse night dives. Go in the water at 5:00AM and come out around 7:00AM or so. I don't like being confined to a peticular lake, time of day, weather condition or what ever. I want to experience poor vis., currents, and generally the things that may arise during your dive. If you don't practice you can't perform well when the time arrises. Let me say first that some of these experiences were first encountered in the company of others. I choose an environment to practice I'm familiar with, and set depth and time to coinside with the scope of the task I'm working on. I'm also accepting of the possible risks. I'm a perfectionist, and strive to be as good as possible through experiencing things as they are. Lets not be fooled, nature can be a cruel teacher. I don't want to die, or be fodder for all the nay sayers of solo diving. I love life and plan to spit in deaths face. You should love life as well. If that means solo diving, and you are prepared in skill, attitude, and the propper equipment to take on the challenge, that's your decision. Be honest with your self first...........Is it worth the risks? Do you have the ability? Do you have the propper equipment? Do you have the dedication to sacrifice some time from every dive to do the skills you may need to survive? Are you comfortable with those skills where they are good enough to save you life in varied conditions? Solo diving can be a wonderful thing. However, it can be a deadly thing if you aren't ready for the demands it may place upon you. It shouldn't be entered into foolishly.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Only 13% of fatalities are solo related you quote. Do you not think that is significant?

How a regulator works is simple science. How people perform under adverse conditions and how they prepare for it is not. Attitude can be ALL IMPORTANT. Along with the simple diving related science we attempt to teach attitude. It has nothing to do with GOD. I teach divers the methods I think will maximize their enjoyment of the sport and the likelyhood that they will survive it.

The value of encouraging solo recreational diving and the validity of this course are not backed by any facts that I have seen.

Oh but you didn't see anything wrong with the course requirements so it must be ok.

I on the other hand do see things wrong with it.

Yes I am a poor business person and maybe an idiot but my students are proficient divers with what is so far a perfect safety record . Zero injuries and Zero deaths over thousands of dives for hundreds of divers in all kinds of conditions. There are some numbers for you.

 

[Wreck/Tec]

I feel ill at ease talking about this. I believe Mike has some valid points about entry people wanting to start solo diveing. I'm not advocating Solo Diving at all! This is a choice one makes when they are well established and versed in diving protocall. It has deadly potential. I prefer to talk about it though, as opposed to hideing, and pretending it dosn't exist. If education is what it takes, read some of these passages. It may be fun, it has it's advantages, however people are dieing from it, maybe as they do from alot of things, but dieing nun the less. I do it! Foolishly to some of you. I have tried to minimise all the risk I can, it's a choice I make though. C cards never meant much to me. Some wave them like trophies. They don't mean your a prepared diver, much less a good one. Just because you have cards dosn't mean your ready to solo.........

 

[Genesis]

what I'm pointing out here are hypocrisy and inconsistency in argument.

Mike rails about new divers wanting to dive solo, and points to SDI's solo diver program as an example of the insanity.

The program he cites requires AOW cert AND 100 dives as a pre-requisite, which is certainly not a "newbie" diver!

16% is significant? 160 deaths in 10 years. What's the denominator Milke? Without knowing that, you don't know the risk, do you?

I bet that on further analysis most of that 16% were on "technical" profiles. After all, if you look at just the last 10 years, I bet you can find at least a dozen deaths of people doing solo deep, technical dives. Heck, how many can you find just on the SEEKER doing the Doria - as solo dives?

So what killed them? Was it solo diving? Or was it something that would have gotten them anyway? YOU DON'T KNOW, but you're more than willing to pass judgement on the 16% as being DUE TO THE ACTIVITY.

INVOLVEMENT does not mean CAUSATION.

If you have a coronary at 300', you're cooked no matter if you have zero buddies or five buddies. The only real difference is the likelihood of recovering the body.

You know this, I know this, anyone who THINKS instead of parroting an agency line knows this.

So where's the rub here?

Is solo diving more dangerous than buddy diving? MAYBE.

Why MAYBE? Because if you solo dive with redundant gear, you might well be safter than someone buddy diving WITHOUT it. This is doubly true if the fact that you're diving solo, and thus must be self-reliant, causes you to be MORE careful than you would otherwise be.

Its not so simple as to say "X is more dangerous than Y", because all the factors that go into doing "X" are NOT invarient when the option is "Y".

Are you going to argue that a diver with a newly-minted C-card diving with a buddy is "safer" than a diver with manifolded doubles and 1500 dives doing a solo dive to 60' in open water and with no current? REALLY?

Then how come all the instructors aren't dropping like flies? They are, effectively, solo divers when with students - these are people who lack the skills to rescue them by definition, as they are being trained at the time!

Dogma - religion by another name - has no place in this sport IMHO.

And Mike - I don't solo dive.

I do recognize that it is a legitimate thing for people to choose to do, and that it has manageable risks, just like any other form of diving.