Exactly how deep is "Deep Air?"

[Walter]

Add all the people who picked depths of 151 and greater vs. all the people who picked 150 and less.

Why? 31 people think 151 is too deep, yet 35 think 165 is fine. Why would you group them together as thinking 151 is too deep?

 

[Cave Diver]

Why? 31 people think 151 is too deep, yet 35 think 165 is fine. Why would you group them together as thinking 151 is too deep?

No. I group them together because his statement said 151 plus.

The people who chose 165 are part of the group who thinks that deep air is something beyond 151 feet.

 

[boulderjohn]

Why? 31 people think 151 is too deep, yet 35 think 165 is fine. Why would you group them together as thinking 151 is too deep?

I agree with you. The problem is that the wording is ambiguous. If you approach a summarizing sentence like this from a certain viewpoint, it makes sense and is entirely accurate. If you approach that same wording from another viewpoint, it makes no sense.

As I said earlier, if you add all the numbers below a certain point, 100% of the people polled agreed that deep air begins at 100 feet.

 

[DCBC]

What is your experience specifically in the statement that "your body adjusts to narcosis" and/or "you can learn to mitigate narcosis/dive deep air".

I became a certified recreational instructor in 1971 and since then have taught/certified various levels of recreational diving from basic to instructor. In 1972, I became a Navy Diver and one year later was assigned to DCIEM as a Diving Operations Officer and was involved in the development of the Air Decompression Tables and the Helium Decompression Tables to 300'. I remained there for 13 years and was involved in many research projects with numerous universities, Navies and hyperbaric research centres in the U.S., Canada and the U.K. I've been a test subject for numerous tests involving experienced Navy Divers and non-diving volunteers. I was also involved as a commercial diving mixed-gas instructor at Seneca College during this time and was involved in hyperbaric activities there (once the chamber was installed in 1975). Since 1985, I've been involved in the commercial diving industry as a saturation diver, diving supervisor, diving superintendent and since 2005 as an independent diving consultant to Big Oil.

If your experience has been in diving deep air, then I am sorry, but I cannot take your word because by definintion you are impaired to begin with. If other please explain in detail.

You're correct. It's generally felt that narcosis measurably affects a divers performance at 50'. That said, every agency (of which I'm aware) says that the depth limit of a newly certified diver is either 60' or deeper. Are they saying that the diver is going to be impaired at 60', but it's ok? No, they are saying that the level of impairment at 60' as far as narcosis is concerned is acceptable. Most agencies say the maximum depth for recreational diving is 130' (still at an acceptable level). Different people react to narcosis differently and experience mitigates their performance.

I'm suggesting that all of the world's navies and the world-wide commercial diving industry has found it safe to undertake working dives past 150'. In-fact government regulations pertaining to workplace health and safety go along with it. Recreational divers have dove safely past 150' for decades before Helium was even available to them. Am I to be convinced that all these dives were unsafe? No.

What I'm saying is that any diving is more hazardous than staying home in bed. Each type of diving, whether it's diving caves, a wreck, under ice or deep requires further training and experience. It's ultimately up to each diver to ascertain the conditions and the type of dive being undertaken, evaluate their training, experience, equipment available and make a valued decision on whether the diver can be made safely or not.

The brand of danger the diver chooses to accept is up to him/her. I don't believe that a cave diver (for example) has the right to point a finger and say that someone diving deep air is acting irresponsibly.

 

[DCBC]

Here we go with commercial diving again. Not the same. Your definition of safe is certainly up for debate. A personal favorite of mine is one of your "safe" dives you did to 200' or so that resulted in a near catastrophe. Since no one got hurt on that, I suppose you lump it into the "safe" category and move along.

I'm not discussing commercial diving. If I was, I couldn't discuss it with you, as you obviously don't know anything about it. Ah the "near catastrophe," I'm glad you brought that up. The people who ran into trouble were two instructors who didn't have the training, or experience to be on that dive. Thanks for making my point.

And none of those had anything to do with the diver being IMPAIRED and the response to the issue incorrect or delayed as a result. You're putting your head in the sand and trying to pass the buck off to some other cause. VERY experienced divers have bit it doing deep air dives. They must have not had the experience.... Right.

I don't know, this is your story not mine. Why don't you give us a specific example.

I don't need to experience narcosis (impairment) to know that its a bad idea in an inherently dangerous environment. I also don't need drunk driving experience to know its dumb, or to do heroin to know its addictive.

If you've ever dove past 50' on air, you've been impaired. It's all a matter of degrees and where you can the line for YOURSELF not someone else.

My problem is with people (like you) who teach and advocate that deep air is ok. If you want to do it, have a blast. But stop teaching it and saying that its ok. Its not ok to dive deep in an impaired state. People in classes are even dying from it, under the supervision of a "qualified" (lol) instructor. Its out of control, and it needs to stop.

Deep air is ok. As I've suggested to you in the past, you should write to the various training agencies that offer it. I'm sure they will value what you have to say.

The entire debate is similar to driving without a seatbelt. People used to do it all the time before seatbelts. People still drive without them, and some even get in car accidents and survive without them. Plenty don't, even experienced drivers on sunny days. YOU are pretty much teaching and advocating that its cool not to wear one, since you and your macho buddies don't. Thats asinine.

There are States that don't require helmets to be worn on motorcycles. Perhaps they need you to point that this can be dangerous.

I guess sometimes it comes down to personal freedom now doesn't it. Are you also advocating that instructors stop teaching cave diving? Statistically it's dangerous you know...

 

[grf88]

My problem is with people (like you) who teach and advocate that deep air is ok. If you want to do it, have a blast. But stop teaching it and saying that its ok. Its not ok to dive deep in an impaired state. People in classes are even dying from it, under the supervision of a "qualified" (lol) instructor. Its out of control, and it needs to stop.

The entire debate is similar to driving without a seatbelt. People used to do it all the time before seatbelts. People still drive without them, and some even get in car accidents and survive without them. Plenty don't, even experienced drivers on sunny days. YOU are pretty much teaching and advocating that its cool not to wear one, since you and your macho buddies don't. Thats asinine.

Taking your logic to it's inevitable conclusion you have to recognise that diving is more dangerous than not diving and should therefore not be taught. Same argument would apply to most recreational activities. Let's all stay in bed, although that could also be fraught with danger.

What is your stand regarding motorcycle and flying instruction.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

Taking your logic to it's inevitable conclusion you have to recognise that diving is more dangerous than not diving and should therefore not be taught. Same argument would apply to most recreational activities. Let's all stay in bed, although that could also be fraught with danger.

What is your stand regarding motorcycle and flying instruction.

No... what he's saying is you can use trimix and be safer while diving deep, he's not saying you shouldn't dive deep at all. Fail.

DCBC I think you missed PfcAJ's point in his seat belt analogy, he's not saying you shouldn't have the freedom to decide to not wear a seat belt, he's saying you shouldn't teach/advocate not wearing one as you do with diving deep air and not using trimix.

 

[grf88]

No... what he's saying is you can use trimix and be safer while diving deep, he's not saying you shouldn't dive deep at all. Fail.

You can be safer still using a single atmosphere suit or a submarine. Since when has PFcAJ been the arbiter of safety.

 

[PfcAJ]

Its statistically dangerous if you don't follow the rules (btw, one of them has to do with deep air), and have training. I challenge you to find an example of where someone was following the rules of cave diving and died (except for Parker Turner, the cave collapsed. This is like getting hit by lightning).

Obviously, if you dive past 0', you're impaired a bit. What changes is that you are MORE impaired deep, and on top of that, you don't have the time to fix a problem.

Observe:
Al80 at 50' at a .6 sac rate. It goes from full to empty in roughly 50 minutes. The same tank at 200' is gone in 18 minutes. This is from 3000psig full to 0psig empty.Any issue you have underwater at depth requires a quick and accurate response. Being narc'd reduces this ability (even in you tough guys). Also, any delay ramps up your decompression requirements. Will you have enough? Sucks to be on the short end of that stick.

I'll give you a specific example. Sherwood Schile. Very experienced, made a serious of mistakes at depth (with an END >100'), and drowned. Chris and Chrissy Rouse. Experienced divers. Made mistakes. Dead. There are tons of others. In fact, I posted 60 of them not a long time ago.

You're right, the agencies need to wake up and stop listening to the clowns who are fueled by testosterone and machoism. Like I said, if you don't want to wear a helmet, a condom, a seat belt, and dive deep air, have a blast. But stop teaching and advocating it. It turns a fun sport (diving) into something that kills people.

Its interesting how people who use some sense and don't convolute their diving seem to not get killed. Pretty wild.

 

[LiteHedded]

You can be safer still using a single atmosphere suit or a submarine. Since when has PFcAJ been the arbiter of safety.

as long as I've known him