Exactly how deep is "Deep Air?"

[boulderjohn]

Thanks Trace. It would appear that the majority in this poll agree with you. Deep air is 151'+.

??? I only see 31 who think 151 is too deep.

Add all the people who picked depths of 151 and greater vs. all the people who picked 150 and less.

To illustrate my point above, 18 people said that deep air starts at 200+ feet. How does adding those 18 people to the 13 who said it starts at 151 come out to a number of people who think it deep air is 151+?

Wording that works: A certain number of people selected a variety of depths greater than 150 feet, indicating that they do not agree that depths shallower than 150 feet constitute deep air.

Wording that does not work because it is deceptive: The majority of people in this poll agree that deep air is 151+..

 

[Cave Diver]

Thanks Trace. It would appear that the majority in this poll agree with you. Deep air is 151'+.

To illustrate my point above, 18 people said that deep air starts at 200+ feet. How does adding those 18 people to the 13 who said it starts at 151 come out to a number of people who think it deep air is 151+?

Wording that works: A certain number of people selected a variety of depths greater than 150 feet, indicating that they do not agree that depths shallower than 150 feet constitute deep air.

Wording that does not work because it is deceptive: The majority of people in this poll agree that deep air is 151+..

But that isn't what DCBC said. He said that the majority think 151+

200' is deeper than 151, so they fall into the "plus" category.

 

[UCFKnightDiver]

That is not my experience. There are thousands of divers diving deep air safely as I type this. Divers have been doing this for decades.

What is your experience specifically in the statement that "your body adjusts to narcosis" and/or "you can learn to mitigate narcosis/dive deep air"

If your experience has been in diving deep air, then I am sorry, but I cannot take your word because by definintion you are impaired to begin with. If other please explain in detail.

 

[Cave Diver]

If you go back to my first post, I said I was confused about the wording of the poll and wasn't sure what I was actually saying.

How deep where you when you originally posted.

 

[DCBC]

I love how you base all your "pro deep air" on commercial diving experience, which is completely different than recreational diving. Then your tune changes to "well, on a rec dive, I'd have less support". No %#@.

I base my experience in the same way as any other diver. How air affects me at depth is the same regardless of the equipment I happen to be wearing at the time. If an accident occurs, the equipment mitagates what can be done for the diver. When preparing a dive, the equipment you are planning to use is an important consideration when ascertaining if the dive can be done safely.

I don't do unsafe dives. That doesn't mean everthing is in the divers control; the nature of the diving environment precludes this. The level of risk must be acceptable to the diver.

In the commercial industry, the dive has to conform to government regulations and agreed upon by the Diving Supervisor. Only then may the dive proceed.

So when someone dies on deep air, is it always because they didn't have the "experience or training"? Or could they not "handle it". There sure are a whole bunch of deaths that have happened with ENDs or less...but not a lot (any?) on dives past 100' with an END less than 100'.

A large number of diving deaths are attributable to poor planning, failure to properly evaluate the diving conditions, diver error in the water, equipment malfunction, entrapment, OOG (which may be attributable to poor planning or diver error), failure to comply with decompression requirements for whatever reason, poor physical condition, or panic. These are largely brought on by either lack of training or experience.

I don't suspect that you have much experience with narcosis. If you did you would realise that just because your breathing air past 100' that the "Narcosis Devil" isn't going to jump out of the dark and take your soul. You can thumb the dive at any time.

If you can't afford the ticket, then don't do the ride. Seems like it always boils down to nickel rocketry and false bravado.

I appreciate that you always dive an END of less than 100'. That's your call. What you fail to appreciate is the majority of the respondants to this poll have stated that they feel deep air isn't deep air until the depth is greater than 150+'. That's their call. There's no need to be negative to those who disagree with your opinion.

 

[Cave Diver]

To illustrate my point above, 18 people said that deep air starts at 200+ feet. How does adding those 18 people to the 13 who said it starts at 151 come out to a number of people who think it deep air is 151+?

Wording that works: A certain number of people selected a variety of depths greater than 150 feet, indicating that they do not agree that depths shallower than 150 feet constitute deep air.

Wording that does not work because it is deceptive: The majority of people in this poll agree that deep air is 151+..

How about: The majority of the people responding to this poll indicate that "deep air" starts beyond the 150' foot mark.

 

[boulderjohn]

How about: The majority of the people responding to this poll indicate that "deep air" starts beyond the 150' foot mark.

It is a good example of an ambiguous statement.

The following statement is also true:

The poll was unanimous. Every single participant agreed that deep air started beyond the 100 foot level.

 

[DCBC]

So when you respond in threads saying that you have no problem diving on air to 200', you are talking about doing such dives on open circuit scuba equipment and when you talk about your experience, you're saying that you have a considerable amount of time/dives on OC at these depths (151'+)?

To be clear, yes I have "a considerable amount of time/dives on OC at these depths (151'+)." When I discuss deep air, the type of equipment I'm using is irrelevant. Equipment worn doesn't mitigate how nitrogen affects the individual at a particular depth.

 

[Cave Diver]

To be clear, yes I have "a considerable amount of time/dives on OC at these depths (151'+)." When I discuss deep air, the type of equipment I'm using is irrelevant. Equipment worn doesn't mitigate how nitrogen affects the individual at a particular depth.

I find it relevant because this is a SCUBA forum, not a commercial divers forum. You've made numerous references to logged hours of commercial time at xxx depth so I want to know what your SCUBA experience is as I take your comments under consideration.

If you can find any statement where I've said equipment mitigates how nitrogen affects you, please remind me. I have said that the type of equipment you're wearing can affect the identification and resolution of a problem and I stand by that statement.

 

[PfcAJ]

I base my experience in the same way as any other diver. How air affects me at depth is the same regardless of the equipment I happen to be wearing at the time. If an accident occurs, the equipment mitagates what can be done for the diver. When preparing a dive, the equipment you are planning to use is an important consideration when ascertaining if the dive can be done safely.

I don't do unsafe dives. That doesn't mean everthing is in the divers control; the nature of the diving environment precludes this. The level of risk must be acceptable to the diver.

In the commercial industry, the dive has to conform to government regulations and agreed upon by the Diving Supervisor. Only then may the dive proceed.

Here we go with commercial diving again. Not the same. Your definition of safe is certainly up for debate. A personal favorite of mine is one of your "safe" dives you did to 200' or so that resulted in a near catastrophe. Since no one got hurt on that, I suppose you lump it into the "safe" category and move along.

large number of diving deaths are attributable to poor planning, failure to properly evaluate the diving conditions, diver error in the water, equipment malfunction, entrapment, OOG (which may be attributable to poor planning or diver error), failure to comply with decompression requirements for whatever reason, poor physical condition, or panic. These are largely brought on by either lack of training or experience.

And none of those had anything to do with the diver being IMPAIRED and the response to the issue incorrect or delayed as a result. You're putting your head in the sand and trying to pass the buck off to some other cause. VERY experienced divers have bit it doing deep air dives. They must have not had the experience.... Right.

don't suspect that you have much experience with narcosis. If you did you would realise that just because your breathing air past 100' that the "Narcosis Devil" isn't going to jump out of the dark and take your soul. You can thumb the dive at any time.



I appreciate that you always dive an END of less than 100'. That's your call. What you fail to appreciate is the majority of the respondants to this poll have stated that they feel deep air isn't deep air until the depth is greater than 150+'. That's their call. There's no need to be negative to those who disagree with your opinion.

I don't need to experience narcosis (impairment) to know that its a bad idea in an inherently dangerous environment. I also don't need drunk driving experience to know its dumb, or to do heroin to know its addictive.

My problem is with people (like you) who teach and advocate that deep air is ok. If you want to do it, have a blast. But stop teaching it and saying that its ok. Its not ok to dive deep in an impaired state. People in classes are even dying from it, under the supervision of a "qualified" (lol) instructor. Its out of control, and it needs to stop.

The entire debate is similar to driving without a seatbelt. People used to do it all the time before seatbelts. People still drive without them, and some even get in car accidents and survive without them. Plenty don't, even experienced drivers on sunny days. YOU are pretty much teaching and advocating that its cool not to wear one, since you and your macho buddies don't. Thats asinine.