Steel vs aluminum 40 for redundant: which is better?

[tursiops]

AL-19,27,40 are not much of of an issue. I did find a AL80, through its swing from full to "empty", takes a bit more compensation during extensive pass-the-bottles exercises doing ITT.

Air weights about 0.08 pounds per cuft, so a full 40 has about 3 pounds of air in it, and an AL 80 has about 6 pounds. In water, the AL40 weighs about 2 pounds plus the weight of the reg; the AL80 weighs about twice that. An empty AL40 in water is about neutral; and empty AL80 in water is slightly buoyant, depending on the weight of the reg. Neither is much to handle underwater full or empty, but, Yes, the AL80 takes bit more management. The AL40 management is trivial, hence its popularity.

 

[rob.mwpropane]

On deeper stuff 2 ppl go in to do the tie in…

How is that relevant? The dives in question are 85' - 120' as per OP. For that every boat in the NE would send 1 mate to tie in.

There are so many assumptions in your post it’s hard to know where to start

I don't understand? Like what? Pick one.

The “dogma” I hear far more often than any “gue dogma” is “our environment is so different from everywhere else we can’t possibly do things any other way”

I don't think it's different, I just think "it depends". The dives we're talking about I don't see a need for a team to go. You're telling me that a father and son combo need to go become part of a team, invest in a ridiculous amount of gear, and wait for that team to go dive an 85' wreck?

Should I take the team into the pool for diving? Where do you draw the line? I need help cleaning my pool.. so if the team wants to save me from myself please come help! I will team dive, we can team scrub together.

@rob.mwpropane — This thread has nothing to do with GUE or any other agency. It has nothing with aboslute rules or calling scuba police. The root of this six page novel is simple - some people believe that while diving with a pony is okay, there are better solutions for redundancy.

I didn't bring up GUE, it got brought up. I just think it's funny how whenever it's brought up it's hailed as "the only true way" to survive diving. And when it's pointed out for it's faults you say stuff like;

the GUE story you've mentioned sounds a bit made up to make a point.

True story... active member on the board told me in confidence, I have zero reason not to believe him. And to be honest, I don't think I have it in me to make up something that elaborate. That's the story, and quite funny if you think about it.

It's fine, I appreciate that we all have a place that we can be passionate about diving in general. I don't care how you dive. I find it very comical that some care so much about how others dive. I enjoy when this topic comes up because I'm just as passionate about "dive and let dive" as you are about team diving. You are the ying to my yang, lol!

@coldwaterglutton no matter which direction you head (I vote slung 40) have fun with your son. Nothing else can top that. Every time I dive with my kids (who are all still alive by the way!) I remember diving is supposed to be fun, not rigid. Don't let the Gestapo scare you off, lol.

 

[flymolo]

How is that relevant? The dives in question are 85' - 120' as per OP. For that every boat in the NE would send 1 mate to tie in.

I don't understand? Like what? Pick one.

I don't think it's different, I just think "it depends". The dives we're talking about I don't see a need for a team to go. You're telling me that a father and son combo need to go become part of a team, invest in a ridiculous amount of gear, and wait for that team to go dive an 85' wreck?

Should I take the team into the pool for diving? Where do you draw the line? I need help cleaning my pool.. so if the team wants to save me from myself please come help! I will team dive, we can team scrub together.

I didn't bring up GUE, it got brought up. I just think it's funny how whenever it's brought up it's hailed as "the only true way" to survive diving. And when it's pointed out for it's faults you say stuff like;

True story... active member on the board told me in confidence, I have zero reason not to believe him. And to be honest, I don't think I have it in me to make up something that elaborate. That's the story, and quite funny if you think about it.

It's fine, I appreciate that we all have a place that we can be passionate about diving in general. I don't care how you dive. I find it very comical that some care so much about how others dive. I enjoy when this topic comes up because I'm just as passionate about "dive and let dive" as you are about team diving. You are the ying to my yang, lol!

@coldwaterglutton no matter which direction you head (I vote slung 40) have fun with your son. Nothing else can top that. Every time I dive with my kids (who are all still alive by the way!) I remember diving is supposed to be fun, not rigid. Don't let the Gestapo scare you off, lol.

Dude you need to calm down


“You're telling me that a father and son combo need to go become part of a team, invest in a ridiculous amount of gear, and wait for that team to go dive an 85' wreck?”

The father and son are the buddy team in this instance. Technically they shouldn’t need anything additional because they have one another, but there’s nothing wrong with bringing a pony bottle if it really makes them feel better. At that level ppl should be encouraged to take whatever safety precautions they want so long as it gets them in the water (and as long as it’s not sidemount off a boat).

Staying together is the best option for redundancy though. Those wrecks are laden with fishing line and a buddy can be really helpful should you get wrapped up somewhere hard to reach.

 

[coldwaterglutton]

@coldwaterglutton no matter which direction you head (I vote slung 40) have fun with your son. Nothing else can top that. Every time I dive with my kids (who are all still alive by the way!) I remember diving is supposed to be fun, not rigid. Don't let the Gestapo scare you off, lol.

I kind of chuckled at it. I have more than my share of dives over almost 40 years and a very thick skin. I'm perfectly happy to be set in my ways and yes my sons and I have fun. That's why we do it.

 

[happy-diver]

Dude I'm loving what you love to do and have 100% support for everyone that's into it, I just don't get it

that being said it's even better to learn to dive well as a buddy team and look after one another because a pony doesn't provide a backup brain

My perspective about learning what other people are going to do underwater is that my time is better spent learning what I'm going to do, preferring to cut half my brain out, rather than taking another ones as backup

 

[flymolo]

My perspective about learning what other people are going to do underwater is that my time is better spent learning what I'm going to do, preferring to cut half my brain out, rather than taking another ones as backup

we can't all be perfect

 

[Cryptid9]

@coldwaterglutton, ok, so their boats - their rules. Although the requirement is silly because you can dive with a redundant air source without any practice switching between gas sources to meet the check mark. A diver who has a reduntant air source but no practice using it may take a bad situtation into a worse one.

For better experience, get yourself and your son into doubles. No need to go huge - 50LPs should do.

I have been looking into learning doubles at some point, so I am curious as to the benefit of having two LP50s over a single steel 100? Is the added redundancy worth it for the extra weight and systems?

 

[mr_v]

I have been looking into learning doubles at some point, so I am curious as to the benefit of having two LP50s over a single steel 100? Is the added redundancy worth it for the extra weight and systems?

If you're looking into doubles, consider all options, as LP50s may not be the best for you.

LP50s offer the redundancy advantage. They can also be cave filled to mid-60cf volume, depending on gas mixes. They're also great if you want to practice with doubles but need a smaller set, e.g., you're a smaller person or don't want to screw around w large tanks on recreational boats. You can also pair them with a chest mounted rebreather later on - it is a neat setup that is not too heavy.

With that said, if you have an above the average build, no access to cave fills, and desire to have only one set, you should consider other options. You're in Key Weest and can get plenty of tech advice in SE FL.

 

[crofrog]

Why do you just gloss over anything anyone says or questions we ask and just keep repeating yourself? That's not really a debate, it's just you talking without seeing a different perspective. At the very least I'm willing to see the merit in what you say, and there is merit.

Fun GUE story told by a friend; He's coming out of a cave to a GUE disciple sitting alone at ~ 20'. My friend has 100% so he does his gas switch and completes his deco. GUE guy still sitting there. When the guy came out some time later my friend asked him what was wrong, he said he had become lost from his team and since protocol was to do gas switches with a team member to verify the switch he had to deco on backgas.

That (to me) sums up GUE really well. Is verifying gas switches a good idea?, absolutely. Is there ever a time and place where maybe it's not going to happen or can't? 100%. This poor guy sat for a good while underwater when a better gas was inches from his face. How hard would it have been to trace the hose, do it twice even, and verify? So entrenched in the dogma he lost sight of the mission. Couldn't think outside the GUE "box".

Yeah that didn’t happen.

A GUE guy would freak out if he lost his team (and I guess end the dive?!?), me on the other hand (and I'm sure plenty of others but I'll only speak for myself) change the dive plan and enjoy what we came there to see and do.

Freak out. No, well maybe for a second because it doesn’t happen to us very often and when it does we need to take steps to remedy.

If you've agreed to dive with someone then you have some level of responsibility for them.

“Oh well bobs disappeared let me just keep swimming around. “Mean while bob is entrapped in a fishing net or tangled in cave line.”

I’m just going to say it bluntly you’re a ****** person if you don't care about losing a team mate under water who you’ve agreed to take care of each other, and for what so you can have a few more care free minutes under water.

 

[Jason Brunson]

Yes, slung is a more accurate description.

And it's not an agency requirement but a dive boat requirement. Pretty much standard for the NY/NJ dive boats to require redundant, or isolation manifold for doubles, etc. Plus it's also a very good idea.

Just background, taking my younger son to the Mandy Ray @85' to make sure his salt water buoyancy and trim are optimal. Then we are hitting the Oregon, the San Diego and U-853 over the summer. These are all deep wrecks by recreational standards. He has decent northeast experience but at shallower depths and hasn't yet carried a redundant tank. I myself have an aluminum 40 with my old Titan on it that I've carried for quite a while.

Interesting, thanks