Buddy Air Balancing?

[Skeeter1097]

All tho I have never had a case where I have done this. I have seen it done and don't really think that it is bad. 600 lbs of gas is a lot of gas to ascend from most dives. This number I do not under stand. To ascend with 600 lbs of gas in your tank. If you are at 90 or 100 ft. for 45 min or so I could see this. But open reef dives/open water dives 30 50 75 ft. I cant see it as I would have 25% of gas left 22 ft. of gas. Pick your dive and know your limitation.

 

[rakkis]

Wow.... I'm going to assume we are just not understanding each other. I will try to remedy that.

This is not an issue of air sharing being "a dangerous skill to practice". I fully encourage any diver, OW student through the saltiest of us to practice any emergency procedure to the point where it becomes muscle memory. At the end of the day, should the unthinkable happen, these skills might save a life. If practicing every single skill on every single dive is what you like doing, go right ahead. That is not the issue.

The point I am trying to make is that in the context of a Basic Scuba Discussion where people new to the sport (hobby/past time/etc let's not make an issue of of this one too! :11doh should not be doing this to extend their dive. As in sharing air for the specific purpose of going a bit further just because their buddy happens not to have the best air consumption. Instead, they should be focusing in addressing the real issue and work on getting comfortable and improving their breathing technique.

If you want to practice air sharing, go ahead. Practice air sharing. But do so with that purpose in mind. Do so and think..."ok.. this is around the time when we would be holding a safety stop" and do it. Check on each other often. Get into the habit of checking the air source you are both sharing' more often.

Where this differs from what I am interpreting you are advocating is that you seem to be doing it out of convenience with the added bonus of getting some real-world practice out of it. It is not the practice I have issues with (See above). It is the convenience aspect of it.

I realize that you guys are following appropriate procedure when you share air to extend your bottom time with your buddy. I am not saying that you just take an octopus and continue merrily on. But think of your audience (The corollary to my main point). Some new divers see experienced people doing this and don't understand the full context of how it is being done, because sometimes things go unsaid/unexplained. Things that you or I wouldn't blink about, but new divers don't even know to ask about. This gets passed on their next boat vacation and now you have word of mouth spreading around as gospel. And now you have people popping their buddy's octo in their mouth, looking at the fishies and forgetting they're breathing from someone else's air. Where is the practice?


The agency I teach through does require that skill. However, the point of it is so that people are comfortable making a normal ascent together. If that means going horizontal for a bit, then so be it. I'm not saying every ascent (real world) will only be a straight line to the top. But there is a difference between extending your dive with a leisurely 200-500 yards horizontal distance and actively being in "emergency mode" in your head and swim out maybe 50 yds horizontally, then up. Remember that in a recreational context, a diver should not be more than 130' linear from the surface. In my opinion, the latter method is a more realistic recreational approach to air sharing practice.

 

[MikeFerrara]

rakkis, it sounds like most of your concerns would be addressed if the recreational agencies started teaching gas management.

 

[Cacia]

Rakkis, You are right. I see the in the OP, Instructor was teaching this...probably beyond what an OW diver should be focused on.

here is the rub. A real life scenario:

OW recently certed, dive..number 20, lets say. He goes on a commercial drift dive with his regular partner. She notices he has 800 pounds when she has 2500. No leaks visible. They are at a place that would be dicey if they surfaced, the current is making a bend around a wall drop-off and to surface here would not be easy for the captain, as he would need to motor into an area too shallow, by the time he spotted you two, in the faster current on top of the reef.

So..experienced buddy gestures to newly minted diver to go on the long hose and keep his reg handy. The decision is made because you make the judgement that buying yourself 5 minutes would be prudent. They are at 30 feet.

Now...should "new diver" refuse this because he lives in the box which he was taught? Or should he think "okay seems reasonable...a bit of a "trust me"?
Trusting another diver is okay, as long as you are processing the alternatives.

I see divers who have not learned to make decisions and think through the options get into trouble.

 

[rakkis]

rakkis, it sounds like most of your concerns would be addressed if the recreational agencies started teaching gas management.

That would be a very reasonable way to prevent many of these situations.

Rakkis, You are right. I see the OP was teaching this...probably beyond what an OW diver should be focused on.

here is the rub. A real life scenario:

[...]

So..experienced buddy gestures to newly minted diver to go on the long hose and keep his reg handy. The decision is made because you make the judgement that buying yourself 5 minutes would be prudent. They are at 30 feet.

Now...should "new diver" refuse this because he lives in the box which he was taught? Or should he think "okay seems reasonable...a bit of a "trust me"?
Trusting another diver is okay, as long as you are processing the alternatives.

I see divers who have not learned to make decisions and think through the options get into trouble.

If I were to find myself in that situation and equiped the way you describe, I could see myself doing something similar with a new diver.

Of course this, again, is just a band aid and does not address the real issue at hand. If properly adviced about his limitations, a newly minted diver shouldn't be in such a current anyway. Certainly not when he still does not have his air mangement down. I make it a point of giving similar examples to my OW students. They need to realize that all the classes in the world do not equate to real world experience. I want them to realize they are small and the ocean can be very powerful. Thus, I advocate respect for the ocean and awareness of your own limitations.

I'm all for new divers pushing just a bit every time. We could not grow and improve otherwise. But with the currents being the way you described, the new diver should have known better than to just jump in. And if they chose to do go ahead with the dive anyway, it should only be with a plan on what to do if they find themselves short on air because of the new conditions and their inexperience with them.

 

[Charlie99]

So are you guys that are against air sharing to equalize air consumption also against buddies having different sized tanks?

Done early in the dive, I see no difference between having an airhog breathe off my tank for a while vs. him having a bigger tank.

 

[Nemrod]

I, Nemrod, cannot believe I am finding my self being in agreement with The Lady in Black (TsandM).

I am going to have to read all this again to catch up, Let's see, one diver hits his turn point pressure and assuming he is the "Hoover" he elects to continue the dive outbound by air sharing his buddy's air. If your on a 3,000 psi tank and following the "rule of thirds" (which is a guide line--not a hard rule) then this occurs at around 2,000 psi. Now the team is on the buddy's air because his tank was at 2,500. They now breath it down to 2,000 thus balancing the air between both divers tanks and then --what--make the return dive on their own rigs? Ok, the "Hoover" diver still uses more air so now he hit's Bingo air again before his buddy. That is the point he should head to the surface to insure 1) enough air in reserve when back on the surface to accomadated any reasonable emergency and 2) enough to get both he and the buddy back to surface (even if they have to use every last drop--in an emergency). This RESERVE is NEVER used except in emergency. OK, now we have the buddy team on their way back, the "Hoover is now at 800 psi (that is minimum reserve--back on boat-- agreed upon prior to dive) and the other buddy is at 1,400 psi. Now you must understand, they are not back to the anchor line, beach, surfacing point yet -SO--now the buddy teams goes back to airsharing--???--!!!!!. Ok, so, they get to the safety stop with 800 on both tanks. Yeah, I guess. They both still have an adequate 800 psi UNTOUCHABLE emergency reserve

How is this different from using a pony to extend a dive as long as you keep adequate reserve in your main supply OR pony? The pony diver could switch to his 30cf pony (diving a main aluminum 80) and breath it down to 15cf, then switch back to his main to finsih the dive taking it down to 800 psi and hit safety stop with the 15cf still in his pony and 800 in the main.

I think anyone can see how an equipment failure would add a new dimension to either case.

I am so confused I would likely drown at this moment.

N

 

[Cacia]

a newly minted diver shouldn't be in such a current anyway.

Instructors say that, here on the board, and yet I never see cash getting turned down for dives once an OW diver has ten or so dives.

Go to Palau and interview the people diving Blue Corner, you might be surprised. Take a job with them and lets see if you are the only one to stand up and say "I refuse to dive these people" until they have 100 dives. I see a huge disconnect with Instructors out there working at the really great dive destinations. Is it right? I don't know...but that is the way it is, most places I have dived. To have divers trained in the burbs and then finding themselves in remote foreign places, they must be able to think beyond PADI.

Most of the time, I see lack of flexibility, blind following, and rigid adherance to rules, without being able to problem solve, as the major ways most divers get into trouble, not by emulating skills way over their heads, jack-*** style.

 

[MikeFerrara]

On a dive where the rule of thirds is applied because you MUST get back to the entry point, obviously the dive must be turned when either diver has used a volume of gas equal to OR LESS THAN 1/3 of their useable volume. The reason is simple. Each diver must have enough gas in his tank(s) to get both divers back from the furthest point in the dive. ok, this is like a cave dive. Regardless of a divers sac or how fast he swims, both will get back as long as they don't use more gas going back than they did coming. If you cheat and one diver suffers a total gas loss at the furthest point in the dive (worst case) someone must die. Of course, when divers have different size tanks, the rule of thirds is useless if divers don't match gas.

However, not all dives require that you get back to the entry point. Adequate reserve may simply be ascent gas for two (rock bottom). The rest of the gas...the useable gas, can be used by anybody or in any way...it just doesn't matter. Purge it out into the water if you want. It can't kill anyone.

Open water divers aren't taught to apply the rule of thirds. Well, usually they aren't taught any kind of gas management. Most, open water dives don't require the rule of thirds to be applied since any dive that does in in effect an overhead dive.

 

[rakkis]

Instructors say that, here on the board, and yet I never see cash getting turned down for dives once an OW diver has ten or so dives.

Go to Palau and interview the people diving Blue Corner, you might be surprised. Take a job with them and lets see if you are the only one to stand up and say "I refuse to dive these people" until they have 100 dives. I see a huge disconnect with Instructors out there working at the really great dive destinations. Is it right? I don't know...but that is the way it is, most places I have dived. To have divers trained in the burbs and then finding themselves in remote foreign places, they must be able to think beyond PADI.

Most of the time, I see lack of flexibility, blind following, and rigid adherance to rules, without being able to problem solve, as the major ways most divers get into trouble, not by emulating skills way over their heads, jack-*** style.

Let's be frank. Anybody with half a brain can blow bubbles and look at fish under calm conditions as long as there's someone there to bail them out. In an ideal world, training would make people more self reliant and make them a much better diver. Unfortunately, this is not an ideal world. People get by and get certified because they paid their dues. Even though they really haven't adequately demonstrated safety skills. I do my part by not letting my own students slide by. I make them earn their certification.

Example from my experience: I saw a picture of a friend I don't speak with on a regular basis online. She was happy to be certified. Then I finish reading the caption.... "... now I just gotta learn how to swim!" This kind of thing goes on day in and day out. Like it or not, warm water, dream dive destinations work on volume. You wanna scuba dive? Only $100!!! Not every dive operation works like this, of course. But a lot do. particularly in places where the tourist industry makes or break the local economy. That is where the disconnect comes from when you break it down to the essentials.

There's nothing wrong with taking brand new divers out. I meet new divers all the time. My own students and others from the same shop. I'm happy to dive with anybody as long as they have a good attitude and have fun. But I am not about to take someone on their 5th dive to do a drift dive at 80-100 feet. Lucky for me and many instructors in the mainland, we don't have to. Someone who makes their living from tourism has more to lose by not offering what the competition has. From a safety perspective, I don't agree with it; but you don't know what you'd do until you've walked in somebody's shoes. I'd like to think I wouldn't do the same.