72's Scuba Tanks
- Thread starter LadyDiva
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It all depends how convincing the sticker is Captain. The biggest risk is probably to the known local guy who isn't doing home fills. I have seen it in action, how much is risk avoidance and how much is protecting the revenue stream is also a fair question but liability is a much more paletable line to use.
halocline
Contributor
There is a case to be made that tank filling can be a very dangerous activity; problems are very rare but the consequences are dire. So, it's not unreasonable for a shop to question an unknown sticker on a tank that looks like, for whatever reason, it might have problems. But, for that matter, the sticker is not really the issue, the appearance of the tank is. So a reasonable response might be "We need to look inside this tank to make sure it's safe for us to fill." That doesn't mean charging for a new inspection or sticker, it just means maybe charging a dollar for a new tank neck o-ring and doing the quick inspection gratis. A little bit of customer appreciation can go a long way.
oldschoolto
Contributor
Yes that would be the easy way
..open the tank,stick a light in and look... charge him 2 dollars and fill it..
Jim
..open the tank,stick a light in and look... charge him 2 dollars and fill it..
Jim
PSI stickers have become a bit of a problem even with precautions to keep them out of general circulation. The issue is not just a sticker getting on a tank that's not been properly inspected but rather the lack of association with a shop and their liability insurance on an individual's PSI sticker. If shop B fills a tank inspected in the last year by shop A and it explodes and damages shop B and/or injures or kills a shop B employee, there will be some shared liability for the accident. If the same tank had a PSI sticker on it, the individual is for all practical purposes much more judgment proof and shop B's insurance company is on the hook for the whole incident. That makes the shop's insurance company a lot less happy, and thus you have movement toward rejection of filling tanks with stickers other than the shop's own stickers.
In some areas, local shops will fill each other's tanks, but will not fill tanks with inspection stickers from other out of state shops, legitimate or not, as those shops have not agreed upon any common protocols.
At the other extreme, there are places that look for a current hydro test and don't bother with a VIP sticker at all. I see that mostly in cave country where there are a lot of traveling divers, and where there is some assumption that the individual at that level probably uses better than average diligence in tank fills and inspections given the demanding nature of the diving.
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I agree the compromise here should be along the lines of draining the tank and pulling the valve for a quick inspection to ensure it is clean, free of rust, pits, contaminants, etc and is odorless. Going into more detail on a tank with an existing current VIP from another shop probably is not necessary, and that minimal inspection only takes a couple minutes once the tank is drained, and charging a couple bucks for the cost of a new o-ring and some lube is reasonable.
In some areas, local shops will fill each other's tanks, but will not fill tanks with inspection stickers from other out of state shops, legitimate or not, as those shops have not agreed upon any common protocols.
At the other extreme, there are places that look for a current hydro test and don't bother with a VIP sticker at all. I see that mostly in cave country where there are a lot of traveling divers, and where there is some assumption that the individual at that level probably uses better than average diligence in tank fills and inspections given the demanding nature of the diving.
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I agree the compromise here should be along the lines of draining the tank and pulling the valve for a quick inspection to ensure it is clean, free of rust, pits, contaminants, etc and is odorless. Going into more detail on a tank with an existing current VIP from another shop probably is not necessary, and that minimal inspection only takes a couple minutes once the tank is drained, and charging a couple bucks for the cost of a new o-ring and some lube is reasonable.
Paulmal
Contributor
oldschoolto
Contributor
There is a BIG differences between a federal rule for all tank inspections and a scuba group saying that it needs a VIP sticker...
When the fire department does a shop inspection your welding cylinders better be in date... Your transporting scuba tanks on a boat is all so under dot reg's But in forced by the USCG..
You could always just stamp the cylinder with a bull**** HYDRO DATE.... But that would be pretty stupid...
I bet it happens....
Jim...
Would just like to add that MOST people can spot a guy that does not take care of his gear and one that does.... The VIP sticker is a money game... That is why they charge 18.00 to 20.00 bucks to screw in a valve and sticker a brand new tank.. The odds of a LDS fill monkey finding something other then water/rust doing a VIP is SLIM to NONE....
When the fire department does a shop inspection your welding cylinders better be in date... Your transporting scuba tanks on a boat is all so under dot reg's But in forced by the USCG.. You could always just stamp the cylinder with a bull**** HYDRO DATE.... But that would be pretty stupid...
I bet it happens....Jim...
Would just like to add that MOST people can spot a guy that does not take care of his gear and one that does.... The VIP sticker is a money game... That is why they charge 18.00 to 20.00 bucks to screw in a valve and sticker a brand new tank.. The odds of a LDS fill monkey
finding something other then water/rust doing a VIP is SLIM to NONE....
captain
Contributor
I think you can further refine your statement by adding "to transport the tanks on a DOT road while engaged in commerce". A private individual is not bound by DOT regulations, that said you may be opening yourself up to civil liability should an accident result in an rupture of the uninspected tank but you did not break any federal regulations so you can not be held criminally liable.
It is just like transporting personal small arms ammunition in your vehicle or boat, there are basically no regulations on doing that but if it is transported by a commercial carrier then there are DOT regulations that apply.
oldschoolto
Contributor
After a fast gooogle search and a ask.com search, The USCG does seem to use the usdot reg's as their standard... So the tank must be in date... At-least that is what it looks like to me...
h) The representations, markings, and certifications subject to the prohibitions of paragraph (g) of this section include:(1) Specification identifications that include the letters “ICC”, “DOT”, “CTC”, “MC”, or “UN”;(2) Exemption, special permit, approval, and registration numbers that include the letters “DOT”, “EX”, “M”, or “R”; and(3) Test dates associated with specification, registration, approval, retest, exemption, or special permit markings indicating compliance with a test or retest requirement of the HMR, or an exemption, special permit, approval, or registration issued under the HMR or under subchapter A of this chapter.(i) No person may certify that a hazardous material is offered for transportation in commerce in accordance with the requirements of this subchapter unless the hazardous material is properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter or an exemption or special permit, approval, or registration issued under this subchapter or subchapter A of this chapter. Each person who offers a package containing a hazardous material for transportation in commerce in accordance with the requirements of this subchapter or an exemption or special permit, approval, or registration issued under this subchapter or subchapter A of this chapter, must assure that the package remains in condition for shipment until it is in the possession of the carrier.(j) No person may, by marking or otherwise, represent that a container or package for transportation of a hazardous material is safe, certified, or in compliance with the requirements of this chapter unless it meets the requirements of all applicable regulations issued under Federal hazardous material transportation law.Jim...
h) The representations, markings, and certifications subject to the prohibitions of paragraph (g) of this section include:(1) Specification identifications that include the letters “ICC”, “DOT”, “CTC”, “MC”, or “UN”;(2) Exemption, special permit, approval, and registration numbers that include the letters “DOT”, “EX”, “M”, or “R”; and(3) Test dates associated with specification, registration, approval, retest, exemption, or special permit markings indicating compliance with a test or retest requirement of the HMR, or an exemption, special permit, approval, or registration issued under the HMR or under subchapter A of this chapter.(i) No person may certify that a hazardous material is offered for transportation in commerce in accordance with the requirements of this subchapter unless the hazardous material is properly classed, described, packaged, marked, labeled, and in condition for shipment as required or authorized by applicable requirements of this subchapter or an exemption or special permit, approval, or registration issued under this subchapter or subchapter A of this chapter. Each person who offers a package containing a hazardous material for transportation in commerce in accordance with the requirements of this subchapter or an exemption or special permit, approval, or registration issued under this subchapter or subchapter A of this chapter, must assure that the package remains in condition for shipment until it is in the possession of the carrier.(j) No person may, by marking or otherwise, represent that a container or package for transportation of a hazardous material is safe, certified, or in compliance with the requirements of this chapter unless it meets the requirements of all applicable regulations issued under Federal hazardous material transportation law.Jim...
Gilldiver
Contributor
After a fast gooogle search and a ask.com search, The USCG does seem to use the usdot reg's as their standard... So the tank must be in date... At-least that is what it looks like to me...
Jim
You would be surprised at what the Coast Guard can do when they want to. For a while they didn't want any boats heading out to the Andra Doria and would stop boats just after they left the dock for a Safety Inspection, as they are allowed to do by law. On a few trips they checked every bottle on board and made the owner dump the gas in them, take the valve off, and remove the tank from the boat before the boat could go on.
The Coasties can also stop you at any time and take you boat apart down to the hull without a warrant if they want to, especially if you have headed out into the open seas and could have going into International waters. This is allowed as part of their enforcement of customs and anti-smuggling laws. Often they invite their friends from the DEA to join in on the fun, I once was on a supply ship that took supplies out to a RV doing research off of Florida and on the way back got the treatment - 5 hours on the fantail in the sun after the doggy went woof at a back pack. What did they find? Nothing but a box of Slim Jims in the back pack, I guess the doggy liked Slim Jims but it took us all of the next day to get the boat back together.
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