Why do we teach flutter kick at all?

[Adobo]

I was just reading the story of the girl who almost died in the Florida cave this weekend, and watching some of the video of the cave, and it occurred to me . . . Why is flutter kick the default kick for divers? Very few new divers do it well, which would probably be the case with frog kick, too -- but at least the frog kick has a rest phase, and the potential to reduce the mess made by novices, so long as they are not horribly out of trim. I would assume we teach flutter kick because it is the most like swimming -- but diving is not swimming, so why do we use a kick underwater that may not be the best one?

Has anybody ever tried teaching OW students to frog kick? (We don't, but we do try to encourage them into a modified flutter kind of kick.)

Just a couple of thoughts on this..

1) I imagine that if an instructor can't teach good technique on a flutter kick, he probably can't teach good technique on any other kick.

2) Even in cave dives, a flutter kick (where thrust is directed backwards as opposed to downwards) is a perfectly acceptable and sometimes, the preferred kick. Or so I am told.

3) It wasn't poor technique or poor choice of fin kicks that almost led to that girl's demise. That dive started going south no later than when the dad said, "hey kids, I have an idea..."

Unrelated thought: Your comment on Rob and I needing to "HTFU" hasn't gone unnoticed.

 

[weezieharris]

I don't think most OW classes even address kicking styles. Flutter kick is the first kick taught in swimming, so I think that's what most people are comfortable with. When you add in the advent of split fins that are specifically designed to work best with a small flutter kick, it just seems like it might be a losing battle in a basic OW class.

Personally, the only time I ever use a flutter kick is when I'm in current and need power, but I'm a former competitive swimmer, so my flutter kick is efficient and powerful...unlike most divers I see. Otherwise, I frog kick exclusively while diving.

This is absolutely right! I am a new diver and amazed everytime I read about an OW class covering kick styles. It was never even mention in my OW class. As such, I didn't even understand the existance of or need to be comfortable with multiple kicking styles until I joined Scubaboard. Its something I practice regularly now but I definately haven't mastered an alternate kicking style.

 

[freewillie]

There is nothing wrong with standard flutter kick for OW situations. It's easy and comes much more naturally than a frog kick for most swimmers. For swim instructors kids learn flutter before they can be taught frog kick. It's more of a progression learning to crawl before you can run.

The accident TSandM refers to involves an accident of a diver in a cave. Once again, it is a situational incident. A diver in an overhead environment without training. A very specific situation requiring specific training. I know her choice of kicks may have contributed to her death but the key was choosing to enter the cave and not as much her kick style.

I have splits and I can do any kick style with them including frog kick. For complete beginners they are still trying to get basic buoyancy skills down, let alone be concerned with their kicking style. Also, the slower they swim the more pronounced the poor buoyancy skills become. They rise and fall in the water more than when they swim faster. So, a slow kick with long rest phase may make them more anxious with poor buoyancy skills.

Teach the students good buoyancy first, then work on the kicks. Let's let OW students and noobs learn to walk before we push them to run.

 

[mdb]

I dive with a pair of Apollo XT C-series spring strap fins. This stiffer version of the bio-fin is great for the wider scissor style kick, frog kick, helicopter turns, as well as the standard flutter kick.

I find the frog kick not at all good for diving into current, speed when needed, while vertical on the surface, waiting for a boat pick up or partner and other uses.

The Frog kick has it place, of course. It is not the only, or even best, kick style by any means.

 

[FinnMom]

Like most clubs, mine trains 1 class of CMAS P1 (basic scuba) students each spring. We teach them flutter and frog kicks, and all the students seem to find the frog kick more challenging, slower and more likely to cramp their calves and even buttock muscles. I assume that's why a more abbreviated training program wouldn't teach the frog kick at all.

However, since virtually all of our dive sites have silty bottoms, learning to frog kick is strongly encouraged. The benefit is obvious to any student who looks back and sees that he no longer leaves a trail like a herd of stampeeding buffalos. It's a wonderful feeling to be newbie and see you have at least learned to leave a beautifully clean path.

I found it took me more than a year to get my muscles used to frog kicking for extended periods of time. I literally spend dozens of dives switching kicks because my calves said "stop that" so painfully. Eventually the muscles adapt and/or develop and it becomes no stress at all. Now I almost never flutter kick, and I suspect my flutter kick is now slower than my faster frog kick.

Speed is generally irrelevant. We/I try to teach students from the very beginning that if you travel 1/2 the distance you will see 3x as much: 2x because you move slower plus 1x because you didn't scare everything away.

 

[danvolker]

My extremely limited knowledge of frog kicking (watching youtube vids) makes it look like a very slow way to move. I also find some of the vids of people frog kicking and the like to be extremely impressive. A lot of precise control on display.

My question is, can frogs and flutters coexist? As in, can I frog when my buddy flutters? Because if that doesn't work out then you have your reason why you should teach flutter kicking - so people can actually dive with their buddies.

My limited experience with buddies so far is that they move faster than I want to go. If I started using a slower way of kicking too....

Typically when I frog kick with a new buddy that is flutter kicking, I have to constantly wait for them....I don't like to end up ahead of a buddy and then have to be looking behind me..I prefer side by side....What I am saying is that most divers dont flutter kick with all that much speed or power, and a technically good frog kick will be faster, and with very low exertion.

At the BHB, I think the classes should begin students with Frog kick, as it is an easily silted environment....If there is a PADI GURU here, I would ask if this would violate OW standards?

 

[Them]

Typically when I frog kick with a new buddy that is flutter kicking, I have to constantly wait for them....I don't like to end up ahead of a buddy and then have to be looking behind me..I prefer side by side....What I am saying is that most divers dont flutter kick with all that much speed or power, and a technically good frog kick will be faster, and with very low exertion.

Excellent feedback! That's exactly what I was looking for...the envelopes overlap at least in some practice.

I wonder how they would overlap for two average PADI (i.e. vacation) divers? Not noob to expert, but meh to meh.

In the past I've learned to my sorrow that sometimes the "specialist" techniques don't coexist all that well with more mainstream practices. I keep looking for those cases with scuba because I am used to finding them in other areas. So far the consensus has been that it all coexists and Hogarthian-equipped divers intermingle safely and smoothly with BCDians, frogs with flutters, and it's a rich diving stew of different but all equally right behavior.

 

[danvolker]

Excellent feedback! That's exactly what I was looking for...the envelopes overlap at least in some practice.

I wonder how they would overlap for two average PADI (i.e. vacation) divers? Not noob to expert, but meh to meh.

In the past I've learned to my sorrow that sometimes the "specialist" techniques don't coexist all that well with more mainstream practices. I keep looking for those cases with scuba because I am used to finding them in other areas. So far the consensus has been that it all coexists and Hogarthian-equipped divers intermingle safely and smoothly with BCDians, frogs with flutters, and it's a rich diving stew of different but all equally right behavior.

Take the 2 divers you are discussing.....if one wanted to get good at frog kick, it could happen in a 2 day weekend of practice....technical mastery far beyond the "complete lack of mastery" which would be associated with the flutter kicking technique of the other diver....OW divers are not normally trained to flutter kick properly, have not been videoed with their flaws pointed out, and have never been "trained" to be optimal at this kick. So..the one doing the frog kick "could" get faster and more efficient. if they wanted to put about 6 hours of pure practice in....
Bike riding would help too, with clipless pedals, and concentrating on the pulling back part of the stroke on the bottom pedal--which works the hamstring/leg biceps....Greg Lemond would say pedal like you are trying to scrape the sh** off of your shoes....this will be awesome for frog kick endurance and ease of kicking on multi-hour long dives.

*** Note..the fast frog kicker would NOT be using split fins...more like Jets, or Hollis, or big DiverR Freedive fins

 

[Them]

Thanks. For the record my personal goal isn't speed but "safe and enjoyable", which I think in part means keeping up with (or reaching) a buddy when needed.

Thanks!

 

[TwoBitTxn]

I frog kick most of the time. I flutter kick if I'm going against a current or need to get somewhere quickly.

I let my students flutter kick. Out of a class of 8 I normally have one or two that will have issues with bicycling. If I can't break them of it, I teach them to frog. That works much more often than not. I have two in my class this weekend I will probably need to work with.

I do tell my students about the different kick styles, why one would be used over another, and why I frog kick most of the time. (it doesn't wear out my legs as bad)

My dolphin kick could be best described as a monkey humping a football.