what/how to say 'wtf are you doing?'

[limeyx]

See post #34. Once again, common sense should have been considered before training.

Yeah "common sense" ... how many times in non-diving life do people comment that common sense ... isn't

Yes, you and I and other trained divers know it's common sense to run lines, use 1/3s at a maximum, mark jumps and T's etc.

How is someone without training going to have a chance at knowing what "common sense" is ?

If you cannot see any possible differences in mentoring compared to a formal supervised training course then I dont think we can agree on that much.,

I agree there is a huge role for mentoring in diving ... I have had some excellent mentors but when a "mentoring" is a justification for someone breaking the limits of their training, or used as an equivalent of formal training, I dont think I agree

 

[tasdiver]

Amen!

Going back to the original question do you tell the diver their instructor is an idiot?

Do you tell the instructor?

No, but I learned my lesson and now ask long before the dive who the diver's instructor was/is.

 

[ucfdiver]

Yeah "common sense" ... how many times in non-diving life do people comment that common sense ... isn't

Yes, you and I and other trained divers know it's common sense to run lines, use 1/3s at a maximum, mark jumps and T's etc.

How is someone without training going to have a chance at knowing what "common sense" is ?

If you cannot see any possible differences in mentoring compared to a formal supervised training course then I dont think we can agree on that much.,

I agree there is a huge role for mentoring in diving ... I have had some excellent mentors but when a "mentoring" is a justification for someone breaking the limits of their training, or used as an equivalent of formal training, I dont think I agree

Thing is, if we completely ignore mentoring and building experience and require a card when one is available its going to be impossible to do any dive that's not beyond your training level. Look at what UTD and PADI are doing, there's a class for EVERYTHING.

If you saw a virgin cave, would you stop EOL and take cave 3 before continuing?

How is someone without training going to have a chance at knowing what "common sense" is ?

Let's not change topics here...I was referring to a basic diver doing jumps, not someone without training. What about if someone was trained for basic in mexico on AL80's, is it OK to dive 1/6ths on HP130's then? If so, what about 1/3rds on AL80's?

 

[tasdiver]

To get back to the OP's original question, I have had the "to far/to fast" conversation with someone who is a VERY good friend and it almost destroyed the friendship . . . but I guess this person's life and safety are more precious to me than my hurt feelings over they're reaction to my concern.

 

[limeyx]

Thing is, if we completely ignore mentoring and building experience and require a card when one is available its going to be impossible to do any dive that's not beyond your training level. Look at what UTD and PADI are doing, there's a class for EVERYTHING.

If you saw a virgin cave, would you stop EOL and take cave 3 before continuing?

I am definitely not saying there is no place for mentoring. I actually think it's one of the biggest ways to improve ones diving.

But where do you make a line ? Is it really appropriate / possible to mentor someone that's taken a basic class in an area to allow them to essentially make dives that require a significantly higher/different skillset ?

Or is mentoring more appropriate to refine skills between classes but not outright flout the rules.

Actually it's funny you pick UTD as they are big proponents of mentoring and enhancing skills and experience between classes.

If I have a (say) GUE Tech1 card. Is is appropriate for a "mentor" to show me how to dive 3 bottles at 200+feet ? Personally I would say very likely not.

is it appropriate for a mentor to show me how to use a bottom stage, practice using it with me, and then for me to go and do dives within my depth/deco limits utilizing a stage. For me, yes in open water.

For each person those areas will be a little different. I am just kind of surprised in your attitude I guess as from your postings I consider you a good & safe cave diver with a good attitude to safe diving.

From my understanding, GUE Cave2, and UTD cave2 I am fine to go explore that cave.

 

[limeyx]

Let's not change topics here...I was referring to a basic diver doing jumps, not someone without training. What about if someone was trained for basic in mexico on AL80's, is it OK to dive 1/6ths on HP130's then? If so, what about 1/3rds on AL80's?

yes to your first, no to your second, obviously (equating basic to GUE cave1 because thats what I am familiar with)

in Cave1, I am not trained to 1/3s so I dont dive that. Yes, I can maybe get as far back in the cave on 1/3s of 80s as 1/6ths on 130s but well .... something is telling me one may be safer than the other.....

 

[ucfdiver]

But where do you make a line ? Is it really appropriate / possible to mentor someone that's taken a basic class in an area to allow them to essentially make dives that require a significantly higher/different skillset ?

You draw the line to where someone who meets the lowest of the standards shouldn't go beyond. On a case by case, I think there's some wiggle room.

I think as long as you follow the 4 rules (excluding training), and consider your experience in the type of cave that you're diving, you'll be fine. I think training is important because it teaches you what you don't know, but after basic cave, if your instructor did his job, you *should* be able to evaluate a dive and determine if you need additional instruction.

Case in point...I have a full cave card, so I can basically do whatever dive I choose. Either my buddy or myself have turned 3 dives recently because we had reached the limit of our comfort level. IMO that's what training should do, let you know when you need a) more experience, or b) more training, and leave those dives for a later day.

yes to your first, no to your second, obviously (equating basic to GUE cave1 because thats what I am familiar with)

in Cave1, I am not trained to 1/3s so I dont dive that. Yes, I can maybe get as far back in the cave on 1/3s of 80s as 1/6ths on 130s but well .... something is telling me one may be safer than the other.....

I know it's a pathetic hypothetical example on my part, but 1/6ths on AL80's in mexico can get you further than 1/3rds in Ginnie in Florida. So by following standards, you can go further in silty no flow cave than in high flow cave that's near impossible to silt. That's kinda my whole point, you have to keep in mind WHY the standards are there.

I don't see an issue with a basic diver with 50 post basic dives diving 1/3rds in a high flow system, I see a huge issue with a basic diver using cave filled LP120's to 1/6ths in a shallow MX system. The wiggle room goes both ways.

 

[limeyx]

You draw the line to where someone who meets the lowest of the standards shouldn't go beyond. On a case by case, I think there's some wiggle room.

I think as long as you follow the 4 rules (excluding training), and consider your experience in the type of cave that you're diving, you'll be fine. I think training is important because it teaches you what you don't know, but after basic cave, if your instructor did his job, you *should* be able to evaluate a dive and determine if you need additional instruction.

Case in point...I have a full cave card, so I can basically do whatever dive I choose. Either my buddy or myself have turned 3 dives recently because we had reached the limit of our comfort level. IMO that's what training should do, let you know when you need a) more experience, or b) more training, and leave those dives for a later day.


I know it's a pathetic hypothetical example on my part, but 1/6ths on AL80's in mexico can get you further than 1/3rds in Ginnie in Florida. So by following standards, you can go further in silty no flow cave than in high flow cave that's near impossible to silt. That's kinda my whole point, you have to keep in mind WHY the standards are there.

I don't see an issue with a basic diver with 50 post basic dives diving 1/3rds in a high flow system, I see a huge issue with a basic diver using cave filled LP120's to 1/6ths in a shallow MX system. The wiggle room goes both ways.

I agree with wiggle room. I dont think that doing jumps and 1/3's on a basic cave cert is wiggle room, it sounds like cave2/full cave to me.

I also see a huge issue with a basic diver doing 1/6ths in a no-flow cave in mexico, and yes, thats "common sense" in that while it may not be explicitly "forbidden" it is not really within the spirit of the standards.

If a diver with 50 dives thinks they are OK diving 1/3's then why not find out and go get the formal training rather than give itg a go and see what happens (and hope their mentor covered the cases when it's especially unsafe to go to 1/3's)

Yes, there cannot be a cert card for everything or else the WKPP or EKPP or many other groups exploring would be SOL

And I agree with your POV on training. I have GUE cave2 and I have turned a bunch of dives for similar reasons....

I also agree that if you have full cave, it's possible with a good mentor to do single-stage dives safely (if you have a good mentor) but you well know that when that topic came up on another board, there were some very (at at least to me) issues from multiple experienced divers on how to dive stages....

For me, it seems pretty clear. Yes, some people may be able to pick this stuff up better than others, but yes training does give a basic minimum standard (in the ideal case I guess), whereas a mentor doesn't really have any standards or anything behind what they are saying.

Just because I am trained to use a stage in a dive doesn't mean I can train someone else how to do it ...

People who want to significantly exceed their training I suppose will always exist, and some may well even scoff at the need for formal training.

 

[ucfdiver]

I think we agree on nearly all cases except the jumps that are almost identical in difficulty to mainline.

Besides, I've already told him he should hurry and get full cave. You need 100 dives beyond that to dive here. If that can't motivate you, I don't know what can!

 

[LiteHedded]

i did 60 or so cave dives above my pay grade before I got full cave. in fact, I'm still doing it. so I should probably stay out of this one lol