what/how to say 'wtf are you doing?'

[BabyDuck]

The Deco Stop

 

[ucfdiver]

james, i agree that's the most likely thing.

i just hear 'we need to police ourselves', but nothing practical on how to do that. remember when elisha (might have) checked tank pressures & the huge stink? she had legitimate concerns. what should she have done? if someone checked your tank pressure on a stage and came to you quietly about it later with an air of 'help me understand your reasoning because i'm concerned for you', how far would most of you slap that person? would in person be different from the spanking she took on the internet? how many of us keep quiet in the face of potential disaster because of her experience?

Touching gear is going too far. If you see the problem, contact them in private. I was NOT told about that until reading it on TDS, that was my beef. Then when my instructor got a phone call late night on vacation, as well as an "anonymous" complaint filed with the NACD, **** got out of hand. All parties involved (including myself) could have handled that whole situation differently.

The fact is, an apprentice diver has had just as much stage training as a full cave diver (none). I thought, and still think, that it's a silly rule...Looking back, I don't think apprentice/full should be 2 classes, and they SHOULD include stage diving. My instructor was well aware of the dives we were doing, we talked in depth about many of them, and we all knew that full cave would come before long. I wanted to practice the skills as much as possible before full, since it's almost a "final" critique of skills, and I wanted to have everything I could worked out before then so that my instructor could point out new things. I have a buddy who's basic right now doing the same thing, he's doing jumps and 1/3rds, but has sought out great mentors to show him the ropes, and is staying in reasonably difficult tunnels.

That being said, Elisha and her dive buddy for that dive have been nothing but nice to me since then, they both are very active in the community and do some great things...everyone on the dive in question is now full cave with Abe Davis, so let's leave the past in the past. I still don't agree with her actions, but I think her motives were right.

 

[Cave Diver]

The Deco Stop

Ah, yes. I remember that now, just wasn't familiar with her name.

I think the difference there, vs. how I perceived your question is the difference in approaching someone directly about a concern before or after a dive vs. "sneaking" to look at their gear.

It's easy to jump to a conclusion when you don't have an explanation. If you have a concern about their gear or plan I think it's better to approach them in a friendly non confrontational manner and discuss it.

If someone came up and told me that my AL40 wasn't enough bailout when I was heading into JB, I'd probably tell them to piss off if they didn't know how far I planned to penetrate. On the other hand, if they came up and talked to me and asked what my dive plan was, "so we're not diving on top of each other" I would have told them I only planned to poke around some just past the first breakdown.

 

[BabyDuck]

james, if i ever knew that was you, i'd forgotten - and i don't think i ever put that together. please don't think i brought it up as any kind of pointing at you. it absolutely was NOT.

john, i think that's what i'm getting at...the best way to come off non-confrontational while ascertaining cert/skill level. right now i'd rather say nothing, but that's not helpful if i see things that shouldn't be happening in a cave.

 

[ucfdiver]

james, if i ever knew that was you, i'd forgotten - and i don't think i ever put that together. please don't think i brought it up as any kind of pointing at you. it absolutely was NOT.

john, i think that's what i'm getting at...the best way to come off non-confrontational while ascertaining cert/skill level. right now i'd rather say nothing, but that's not helpful if i see things that shouldn't be happening in a cave.

I think in order to have an effect you need to be a diver that the individual in question looks up to. That's the tough part.

 

[Cave Diver]

I think in order to have an effect you need to be a diver that the individual in question looks up to. That's the tough part.

That's where rule #6 comes in. Look cool and they'll respect you.

 

[BabyDuck]

well, i'm there! i have a pink hood with a jeweled tiara on it! i'm all about rule 6!

 

[diverdoug1]

Other than friendly conversation, and trying to be a good ambassador for the tech community, I would find it difficult to approach a diver that I did not know and tell him he was "doing it wrong". I guess I would have to get a feel for how open they were to advice. Of course,if I am responsible for them (on my boat or in my class) I have no problem giving them an earfull of advice.

 

[limeyx]

My instructor was well aware of the dives we were doing, we talked in depth about many of them, and we all knew that full cave would come before long. I wanted to practice the skills as much as possible before full, since it's almost a "final" critique of skills, and I wanted to have everything I could worked out before then so that my instructor could point out new things. I have a buddy who's basic right now doing the same thing, he's doing jumps and 1/3rds, but has sought out great mentors to show him the ropes, and is staying in reasonably difficult tunnels.

...unless I am misunderstanding something fairly fundamental, your buddy is(was) going well past their training, and you imply you may have been also.

I dont think "mentoring" or "fully aware of" really counts as "training" and isn't "not diving beyond training limits" one of the primary safety items in cave diving ?

I am not getting something

 

[ucfdiver]

...unless I am misunderstanding something fairly fundamental, your buddy is(was) going well past their training, and you imply you may have been also.

I dont think "mentoring" or "fully aware of" really counts as "training" and isn't "not diving beyond training limits" one of the primary safety items in cave diving ?

I am not getting something

Apprentice is practically the same course as full cave. Look at the standards and there's really nothing different.

The linked thread proved that full cave divers can't calculate stage math, either. It SHOULD be included ala GUE Cave 2, but it's not, so I stand by nothing makes stage diving any different between full cave and apprentice. Heck, rent LP120's and cave fill them and you're doing the same dive as the typical lp104's+stage.