what/how to say 'wtf are you doing?'

[limeyx]

Apprentice is practically the same course as full cave. Look at the standards and there's really nothing different.

The linked thread proved that full cave divers can't calculate stage math, either. It SHOULD be included ala GUE Cave 2, but it's not, so I stand by nothing makes stage diving any different between full cave and apprentice. Heck, rent LP120's and cave fill them and you're doing the same dive as the typical lp104's+stage.

Ok, so "basic" was a typo then in the original post ?

I have no issue with stage diving being included in full cave but then the course likely needs to be as long as GUE cave2 (5-6 days) right ?

Don't you think maybe Apprentice is there to get experience in what one is already trained in, rather than taking on additional pieces of gear (which you admit they may not be able to do the calculations for)

yes, one COULD rent LP120s and do that but is that what apprentice is really about or does it say something about that individuals approach to safety and diving (or that that person needs to go do the full cave and get the proper training)

This is somewhat the pot calling the kettle black as we did a few dives that we were (curtly) informed were pushing our cave1 limits right before cave2.

That you don't see an issue with a basic cave diver doing 1/3's and jumps is a little scary especially given the recent very similar death (or does basic cover these skills ?)

 

[PfcAJ]

The difference between the 3 deaths you're thinking of and what James is suggesting is quite profound.

There is a huge difference between diving to thirds with an experienced full cave diver and doing multiple visual jumps with another intro diver. Taking a jump off the mainline as an intro/c1 diver WITH an experienced full cave bud is very different than diving in a very challenging cave that requires deco and excellent technique with your cavern certified pal.

Basic/intro/c1 all go over accident analysis. The recent deaths all blatantly knew and violated the rules that we ALL know were gone over in class (save the vortex thing, he didn't take a class, apparently). Yes, diving beyond your training is one of them, but being taught by a good mentor is training, it just doesn't come with a c-card. Hip shooting (like the school sink thing and the recent fatality at peacock) is certainly ill advised.

 

[ucfdiver]

Ok, so "basic" was a typo then in the original post ?

I have no issue with stage diving being included in full cave but then the course likely needs to be as long as GUE cave2 (5-6 days) right ?

Don't you think maybe Apprentice is there to get experience in what one is already trained in, rather than taking on additional pieces of gear (which you admit they may not be able to do the calculations for)

yes, one COULD rent LP120s and do that but is that what apprentice is really about or does it say something about that individuals approach to safety and diving (or that that person needs to go do the full cave and get the proper training)

This is somewhat the pot calling the kettle black as we did a few dives that we were (curtly) informed were pushing our cave1 limits right before cave2.

That you don't see an issue with a basic cave diver doing 1/3's and jumps is a little scary especially given the recent very similar death (or does basic cover these skills ?)

IMO basic cave teaches "basic cave" skills. They can go left/right at the T's in little river, but can't run a finger spool 10ft over to create their own T?

I think the PURPOSE is to keep basic diver to limited penetrations and off extremely dangerous passages. If he were going down the water source tunnel in Peacock, I see an issue. If it's Hill400 in Ginnie, I don't.

I think a mentor can guide the diver to doing dives that stretches the divers ability without ending up in a situation that's dangerous. Similar to what you're saying with c1 right before c2. However I wont post that in a public area of the forum because you always have to adjust your advice to the lowest common denominator.

 

[limeyx]

So you are both saying that the "rules" of accident analysis are somewhat vague, and apply only in some situations in "hard" passages and there is nothing extra that can go wrong with a T compared to a small jump .... smells like a whole lot of bogus to me.

 

[ucfdiver]

So you are both saying that the "rules" of accident analysis are somewhat vague, and apply only in some situations in "hard" passages and there is nothing extra that can go wrong with a T compared to a small jump .... smells like a whole lot of bogus to me.

No one has ever died because they didn't have training.

They die because they neglected the other 4, which they would have known if they took training.

The lady at Peacock made a stupid decision in not running a jump reel or verifying her circuit. She was taught in cavern class the rule about maintaining a guideline, yet chose to ignore that. No amount of training can fix that.

This guy at vortex could have had a cave instructor rating and still died. 170ft no mount in clay...my instructor wouldn't even think to tell me not to do that, it's common sense!

 

[limeyx]

No one has ever died because they didn't have training.

They die because they neglected the other 4, which they would have known if they took training.

The lady at Peacock made a stupid decision in not running a jump reel or verifying her circuit. She was taught in cavern class the rule about maintaining a guideline, yet chose to ignore that. No amount of training can fix that.

and your buddy is not making a "stupid" decision putting in jumps and going past their gas training ?

FACT is that diving beyond training is one of the major correlations/causations

yes, not running a jump reel is a dumb decision.

I guess no amount of training can fix your buddy either then if they make a mistake putting in a reel ?

Why not just stick to the limits/"rules" and go to the next level of training when appropriate when you can practice new skill in a stress situation

I think you are trying to justify something that maybe shouldn't be justified here.

More things can go wrong with a jump than a T and I think it' appropriate that if your class didn't teach that, take the next level training before you do it.

I'm just not buying the "it's OK because it's nothing like the Peacock incident"

if a basic cave diver dies on a jump line is it "OK" for the next person to break their limits as long as it's not like the Peacock lady or the other guy that died doing something dumb/wrong ?

 

[Cave Diver]

Yes, diving beyond your training is one of them, but being taught by a good mentor is training, it just doesn't come with a c-card. Hip shooting (like the school sink thing and the recent fatality at peacock) is certainly ill advised.

Ah, but here's the rub. And many of us, including myself are guilty of flipping to the convenient side of this training vs. mentoring coin.

If you don't have the training, how do you know if you're being taught by a good mentor? Just because he hasn't gotten himself killed yet? Because he has cool gear? Because...? Mentors can be a great thing, but they aren't independently evaluated by others, so who is to say if they're great or not?

On the other hand, when you get training from an instructor you do so with a certain degree of confidence that someone has evaluated his teaching methods and found them acceptable. Otherwise he wouldnt be allowed to issue cards, wouldnt be able to get insurance, etc. Still, some do fall through the cracks and run substandard classes. (Which getting back to the original gist of this thread I think we have a responsibility to call those people out as well).

So is there a perfect balance?

I think so. I think the balance is to learn the basics from an instructor. Let them build the foundation of things you need to know, sort of like a paint by number set without the color code. You can see the picture but everything is black and white. Then a mentor helps you fill in the colors to make the picture uniquely yours, but you still know enough to stay inside the lines.

 

[ucfdiver]

Let's review the deaths.....

Bruce at Ginnie did 7 visual jumps before he and his buddy split up and died. (Full Cave)

Mark Fyvie was doing a dive on a RB where OC+1 stage would have done perfectly fine. Then he fiddled with the breather until his bailout gas was gone....but he was fully trained.

Richard Monk had cells too old for his rebreather...once again, fully trained.

The two at Waynes World were way over their heads, one was basic cave within those limits (albeit not the site limits). Either way, one of them, who was trained in doubles, didn't check an isolator, once again, he was TRAINED, but didn't act. The other guy had failed cavern twice because his skills were just that bad...I'll give you a point on that one.

The two trained divers at eagles nest a few years back were on high END's, once again, they knew better.

The more recent eagles nest rebreather fatality was caused by too little bailout and a poor gas choice, once again, they had training to know better.


....training is either not doing it's job, or common sense is starting to beat out training for that #1 position. We even have agency leaders who get trained on CCR one week and then go do 400ft deep cave "exploration" (if you call water sampling exploration rather than an advertising effort) the very next....sometimes I think a certification card is used to justify the dives, when all it really means is you've met the minimum standards.

If you don't have the training, how do you know if you're being taught by a good mentor?

Replace mentor with instructor, and we're back to the same point.

 

[PfcAJ]

I think you're trying to make this a dichotomy, and it isn't.

"Training" does not always come with a card. If it did, I wouldn't be doing ANY of the dives I currently do. I trained/mentored with some exceptional divers, and I do dives WAY past my c-card with cave instructors on a fairly regular basis.

The peacock lady totally and ridiculously violated many "rules" of cave diving. She KNEW to always have a continuous guideline, and chose to downright ignore it. The two guys at School Sink were in over their head, and there was no mentorship taking place, only hip shooting. They knew as well. The guy at Vortex had to shimmy the gate to do dives, because he KNEW it wasn't allowed.

Going off by yourself and breaking "limits" can certainly get you kacked, as you don't know what you don't know. However, and experienced mentor can teach the skills and procedures needed to do the dive. Not everything in diving needs a class. Hell, I'd still be diving a wetsuit if that was the case.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

well, i'm there! i have a pink hood with a jeweled tiara on it! i'm all about rule 6!

... it was the pink duct tape that earned my respect ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)