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what/how to say 'wtf are you doing?'
- Thread starter BabyDuck
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ucfdiver
Contributor
specifically, what skills and knowledge was in Full Cave and not Apprentice?
... my instructor didn't seem to feel that way.
I passed Apprentice pretty easily ... got my butt kicked before I passed Full Cave.
... Bob (Grateful Diver)
PfcAJ
Contributor
I agree with wiggle room. I dont think that doing jumps and 1/3's on a basic cave cert is wiggle room, it sounds like cave2/full cave to me.
I also see a huge issue with a basic diver doing 1/6ths in a no-flow cave in mexico, and yes, thats "common sense" in that while it may not be explicitly "forbidden" it is not really within the spirit of the standards.
If a diver with 50 dives thinks they are OK diving 1/3's then why not find out and go get the formal training rather than give itg a go and see what happens (and hope their mentor covered the cases when it's especially unsafe to go to 1/3's)
Yes, there cannot be a cert card for everything or else the WKPP or EKPP or many other groups exploring would be SOL
And I agree with your POV on training. I have GUE cave2 and I have turned a bunch of dives for similar reasons....
I also agree that if you have full cave, it's possible with a good mentor to do single-stage dives safely (if you have a good mentor) but you well know that when that topic came up on another board, there were some very (at at least to me) issues from multiple experienced divers on how to dive stages....
For me, it seems pretty clear. Yes, some people may be able to pick this stuff up better than others, but yes training does give a basic minimum standard (in the ideal case I guess), whereas a mentor doesn't really have any standards or anything behind what they are saying.
Just because I am trained to use a stage in a dive doesn't mean I can train someone else how to do it ...
People who want to significantly exceed their training I suppose will always exist, and some may well even scoff at the need for formal training.
Whoa there.
Its ok to do a stage dive, but not ok to do a jump? Wiggle room is ok...as long as you say its ok? Seems like your line is a bit arbitrary, at best.
None of the cases we're talking about (that resulted in fatalities) had mentorship involved. It all had plenty of convoluted nonsense, however.
Maybe the real first rule of tech diving should be Rule #1 and 2 : Don't dive with/ listen to unsafe divers.
Formal class time training is great, but its certainly not the end all be all.
The reality of this is that there is a HUGE gray area. Its up to all of us to police our own (to include these so called "instructors") and call out the BS.
limeyx
Guest
Yeah, maybe I overspoke. I guess my thinking is/was that someone that already has full cave is likely to be able to have the skills/experience to evaluate their mentor and to do their research.
Whereas someone with limited experience and basic cave really has less of a chance of that.
You are right though, I probably (definitely?) mis-spoke on that.
EDIT: The problem with that rule is that for people with basic training, it can be hard to determine (sometimes) what is safe/unsafe. May sound stupid but if a very trusted source is vehement that circuits dont need to be verified first, I bet a larger portion of basic cave divers compared to apprentice or above would probably go along with it ...
Well, I'm one of those
's that never broke 6ths and stayed on the mainline the whole 18 months after my intro cert. To get ready for apprentice/full I used wrecks and scrub reefs to practice the advanced skills I would have to perform. I planned on doing apprentice & full consequtively. Upon completion of apprentice, my instructor advised me I needed more pratice before I would be ready for full, so I took 8 months and dived as much as I could . . . admittedly at full cave and beyond (staging) to get ready with some great mentors including one who is a cave instructor.
If I hadn't stuck to my level of training, could I have finished apprentice/full in that one week . . .
Blackwood
Contributor
There's a whole lot of fuzziness in the world.
Nick seems to agree that a mentor can help a diver progress beyond his/her own official qualifications, but seems to draw the line at (or somewhere before?) the point that the dive in question involves skills for which the next higher class specifically exists (e.g. doing thirds and jumps on an intro/C1 card).
John notes that there's no recognized third party oversight of a mentor, and James points out that there are instructors (who are backed by said oversight) who teach ridiculous things, to which Brian asked for names.
I think that says it all. Ask for names. At some point, we have to rely on the community as a whole to keep us in check. "Common sense... isn't," so if I tell you I'm going to go push my experience, and you think it's a little too hard, I'd really appreciate it if you'd pounce on me for it (even if it does cause some temporary hard feelings). My wife would likely appreciate it too.
So I guess my answer to the OP is: don't pull punches. People need to be like tasdiver and be up front with the "too far/too fast" to keep people from getting hurt. If you feel the need to do it diplomatically, go for it. But getting the point across is paramount.
This thread has really been about cave training limits, but should be applied throughout the full gamut of diving. In that interest, I have a question for Nick. In about 2 months, we're going on a boat, and I'm planning to do exactly that which I think you were warning against: use skills for which a higher class specifically exists (in this case multi-stage decompression). Honestly, too far/too fast? (I can take it)
Nick seems to agree that a mentor can help a diver progress beyond his/her own official qualifications, but seems to draw the line at (or somewhere before?) the point that the dive in question involves skills for which the next higher class specifically exists (e.g. doing thirds and jumps on an intro/C1 card).
John notes that there's no recognized third party oversight of a mentor, and James points out that there are instructors (who are backed by said oversight) who teach ridiculous things, to which Brian asked for names.
I think that says it all. Ask for names. At some point, we have to rely on the community as a whole to keep us in check. "Common sense... isn't," so if I tell you I'm going to go push my experience, and you think it's a little too hard, I'd really appreciate it if you'd pounce on me for it (even if it does cause some temporary hard feelings). My wife would likely appreciate it too.
So I guess my answer to the OP is: don't pull punches. People need to be like tasdiver and be up front with the "too far/too fast" to keep people from getting hurt. If you feel the need to do it diplomatically, go for it. But getting the point across is paramount.
This thread has really been about cave training limits, but should be applied throughout the full gamut of diving. In that interest, I have a question for Nick. In about 2 months, we're going on a boat, and I'm planning to do exactly that which I think you were warning against: use skills for which a higher class specifically exists (in this case multi-stage decompression). Honestly, too far/too fast? (I can take it)
ucfdiver
Contributor
ucfdiver
Contributor
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