Downing
Contributor
To hear the manufacturers tell it, they're all "high end."
What do you gain by going with a "high end" regulator?
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I can see insurance carriers setting policy on selling DIY service kits.
If a jury found a seller even 1% at fault in an accident it could be a huge judgement.
Liability issues are easy to ignore when you have nothing to loose.
If a jury found a seller even 1% at fault in an accident it could be a huge judgement.
Liability issues are easy to ignore when you have nothing to loose.
Come on..... think about buying brake parts and doing your own service on your car? Lets cut the BS....
R
redacted
Guest
Zeagle seems to be one of the few USA distributors that makes service parts available. Perhaps you could run down the liability issue from the inside. I suspect it is just an old excuse that has been used for so long that many people believe it.
I sell service parts on the market so you are preaching to the choir.
Never the less, what I say is true. Right Downing?
---------- Post added April 4th, 2012 at 10:37 PM ----------
It is not Zeagle selling service parts, it is their dealers. Risk/Reward might change the availability.
Getting back to the original question!
The first main difference in price is balanced vs unbalanced first stage. I don't know if anybody still makes unbalanced first stages, but these used to be the cheapest. A balanced regulator should breath pretty much the same as the tank pressure drops. An unbalanced reg on the other hand will start to be "more stiff" as pressure drops in the tank. If you ever get the tank pressure down to the level of the reg IP then breathing is really quite difficult.
After that the differences are principally weight and how well they perform in cold water.
So, diving somewhere warm, and not particularly deep, using a rented reg you would not notice any real difference in performance between "high end" and an "el cheapo" reg (sorry to OxyCheq if they have a TM on this name).
The differences come when conditions get difficult. Cold, deep and hard work? then yes you see big differences between regs.
Last week I dived in the French side of the English channel. The water was 8 Deg C. Back in February I dived in a local quarry when there was snow on the ground, and the water was 1 Deg C. In these conditions we start seeing real differences. Look at the Apeks range, the first stages (US4, UST, DS4, DST) the first two are similar to the second two, but are not environmentally sealed. In cold water like my last two dives these regs would have problems, particularly freezing. The second two wouldn't (and didn't). The price difference is unfortunately not what it takes to make the reg, but what the additional functionality was worth. At both dive sites I saw several divers with free-flowing regs at the surface. We cold water divers are a superstitious lot, and when we have confidence in one particular make of regulator in these conditions, we tend to stick to it. I wouldn't change from Apeks for all the tea in China - my experience with them in these conditions is such that I have complete confidence in them.
The other main differentiating point is weight. If you are flying off somewhere, then weight is an important issue. The Apeks flight (1st +2nd stage) is 467g in Din format whereas the XTX50 is 1150g in Din. this is 60% (or 0.7kg) lighter. Now if you have two or more regs for a family going diving, this size weight advantage starts being really useful especially with the poor weight allowances most airlines give. Is it worth the price premium? I'm not sure, it depends on how often you fly and how much crap you take with you.
One other point is their life expectancy. My Apeks TX20, 40 and 50 were bought in 1994 - 6. I have now done hundreds of dives on them. They are still perfect in cold water. The first stages (DST) are still manufactured. The internal mechanisms of the second stages are still manufactured. Obtaining parts is not, and will not be for a long time, anything of a problem. The other "top flight" manufacturers are the same. Outside SCUBA, getting something 16-18 years old serviced starts to be difficult. I am sure that there are some regs of this age that are now not serviceable because of the lack of parts.
So, there we go, my rambling thoughts on this. I would however, like to be able to legally service my regs myself. However, having seen the mechanical aptitude of the general population, I can see why manufacturers don't want unauthorized people working on regs.
Best
Jon
PS the OP had an Aeris ION. The European price for this as a complete set with 1st, second and octopus is about 490€(list) and can be had for about 420€. An equally performing Apeks twin XTX40 set will be about 540e list price, and can be had for 460€. Would I pay the extra 40€ to get a regulator that I know will be performing just as well, in the bad conditions I dive in, in 16-18 years time? Hell yes I would.
The first main difference in price is balanced vs unbalanced first stage. I don't know if anybody still makes unbalanced first stages, but these used to be the cheapest. A balanced regulator should breath pretty much the same as the tank pressure drops. An unbalanced reg on the other hand will start to be "more stiff" as pressure drops in the tank. If you ever get the tank pressure down to the level of the reg IP then breathing is really quite difficult.
After that the differences are principally weight and how well they perform in cold water.
So, diving somewhere warm, and not particularly deep, using a rented reg you would not notice any real difference in performance between "high end" and an "el cheapo" reg (sorry to OxyCheq if they have a TM on this name).
The differences come when conditions get difficult. Cold, deep and hard work? then yes you see big differences between regs.
Last week I dived in the French side of the English channel. The water was 8 Deg C. Back in February I dived in a local quarry when there was snow on the ground, and the water was 1 Deg C. In these conditions we start seeing real differences. Look at the Apeks range, the first stages (US4, UST, DS4, DST) the first two are similar to the second two, but are not environmentally sealed. In cold water like my last two dives these regs would have problems, particularly freezing. The second two wouldn't (and didn't). The price difference is unfortunately not what it takes to make the reg, but what the additional functionality was worth. At both dive sites I saw several divers with free-flowing regs at the surface. We cold water divers are a superstitious lot, and when we have confidence in one particular make of regulator in these conditions, we tend to stick to it. I wouldn't change from Apeks for all the tea in China - my experience with them in these conditions is such that I have complete confidence in them.
The other main differentiating point is weight. If you are flying off somewhere, then weight is an important issue. The Apeks flight (1st +2nd stage) is 467g in Din format whereas the XTX50 is 1150g in Din. this is 60% (or 0.7kg) lighter. Now if you have two or more regs for a family going diving, this size weight advantage starts being really useful especially with the poor weight allowances most airlines give. Is it worth the price premium? I'm not sure, it depends on how often you fly and how much crap you take with you.
One other point is their life expectancy. My Apeks TX20, 40 and 50 were bought in 1994 - 6. I have now done hundreds of dives on them. They are still perfect in cold water. The first stages (DST) are still manufactured. The internal mechanisms of the second stages are still manufactured. Obtaining parts is not, and will not be for a long time, anything of a problem. The other "top flight" manufacturers are the same. Outside SCUBA, getting something 16-18 years old serviced starts to be difficult. I am sure that there are some regs of this age that are now not serviceable because of the lack of parts.
So, there we go, my rambling thoughts on this. I would however, like to be able to legally service my regs myself. However, having seen the mechanical aptitude of the general population, I can see why manufacturers don't want unauthorized people working on regs.
Best
Jon
PS the OP had an Aeris ION. The European price for this as a complete set with 1st, second and octopus is about 490€(list) and can be had for about 420€. An equally performing Apeks twin XTX40 set will be about 540e list price, and can be had for 460€. Would I pay the extra 40€ to get a regulator that I know will be performing just as well, in the bad conditions I dive in, in 16-18 years time? Hell yes I would.
The 2nd stage regulator is tuned/adjusted to perform with a supply pressure that is constant from full tank pressure all the way down to 500 psi.
With a constanly decreasing IP every breath requires more effort and an increasing cracking effort.
The diver may not notice what is going on but he well eventually as tank pressure drops and breathing effort gets crazy hard.
With a constanly decreasing IP every breath requires more effort and an increasing cracking effort.
The diver may not notice what is going on but he well eventually as tank pressure drops and breathing effort gets crazy hard.
R
redacted
Guest
I don't believe "crazy hard" is a fair description of the difference, but it may get noticeably harder. A balanced 2nd theoretically holds IP right until the tank pressure falls below IP and breathing will get "crazy hard". Some hold it right on and others may see a 5psi or so drop as tank pressure falls from 3000 to 500 psi. I could not find an engraved unbalanced piston seat so I am guessing the orifice is about 0.1 inches in diameter. That would mean the unbalanced downstream pressure from a 3000 psi tank is about 23 pounds on the exposed seat surface. So, the drop in IP from 3000 to 500 psi should be between 20 and 25 psi (allowing a range for my orifice diameter approximation). Clearly more than a balanced 1st and probably noticeable, at least with an unbalanced 2nd, but nowhere large enough to become "crazy hard" until tank pressure falls below IP. In fact, if you are using something like a Scubapro D-series 2nds which is probably close to 75% pneumatic balanced, it would be about the same as many balanced piston 1sts with unbalanced 2nds.
halocline
Contributor
From experience I know accurately how much a MK2 with a R190 (unbalanced piston/unbalanced 2nd stage) increases in breathing effort throughout the dive. It's not even noticeable until around 500 PSI, at which point it begins to gradually get noticeably stiffer; at 300 you can really feel it. The effect increases with greater depth too, due to the higher absolute IP. IMO, this is a good feature for rental regs that are frequently used by inexperienced divers, because they will get a 'reminder' that they're low on air if they don't monitor their gas supply carefully. If you're a new diver at 100ft with less than 500 PSI, you need such a reminder.
"High end" really only means expensive. There are all sorts of better performing designs, especially better performing 2nd stages, that are worthy of costing more, as well as all sorts of insignificant 'features' and high tech materials. A titanium 1st stage is definitely 'high end' but offers zero performance advantage. The fact that its a bit lighter only means you have to add a bit more weight, and with plenty of 20-30 year old brass/chrome 1st stages in perfect condition, the truly excellent longevity of titanium is essentially a solution in search of a problem. Complicating the whole issue is the unfortunate fact that titanium is a very poor choice for higher concentrations of O2, meaning the unsuspecting sucker (oops I mean dedicated customer looking for "the best") who buys one might have problems using nitrox. Not the explosive, face burning type of problem, the "oh I'm sorry sir, we can't let you use that reg with nitrox" type of problem.
The truth is that many "high end" purchases in scuba gear are more about narcism than anything else. Just a few decades ago, many many extreme dives were routinely conducted with gear that a snooty salesman might today describe as unfit for a OW pool session.
"High end" really only means expensive. There are all sorts of better performing designs, especially better performing 2nd stages, that are worthy of costing more, as well as all sorts of insignificant 'features' and high tech materials. A titanium 1st stage is definitely 'high end' but offers zero performance advantage. The fact that its a bit lighter only means you have to add a bit more weight, and with plenty of 20-30 year old brass/chrome 1st stages in perfect condition, the truly excellent longevity of titanium is essentially a solution in search of a problem. Complicating the whole issue is the unfortunate fact that titanium is a very poor choice for higher concentrations of O2, meaning the unsuspecting sucker (oops I mean dedicated customer looking for "the best") who buys one might have problems using nitrox. Not the explosive, face burning type of problem, the "oh I'm sorry sir, we can't let you use that reg with nitrox" type of problem.
The truth is that many "high end" purchases in scuba gear are more about narcism than anything else. Just a few decades ago, many many extreme dives were routinely conducted with gear that a snooty salesman might today describe as unfit for a OW pool session.
Balanced 2nd stages are not typically sold on unbalanced 1st stages as these are always sold as price point regulators.
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