THE "PERFECT ( being horizontal ) TRIM" HOAX

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

There are a few things that can be said about this post so I will begin by addressing what I consider to be the problem.

I hate that restricted view and get a sore neck from being in the "perfect trim" position so many think I should have.

Ask yourself one question. If perfect trim was not resulting it a "sore neck," would the rest of your post be necessary? It appears that you have the same technique problem that I used to have. People are often mis-instructed when they are taught to either "arch their back" or "pull their head up." In a perfect trim, you should think "relax my spine." This would cause your spine to relax into an arched position rather than being "twisted" into an arched position. It should be a relaxed and calming posture.

Is it necessary to master? No. Most people specially in the recreational domain, dive without it. The have no control of themselves and when a group of recreational divers passes over a dive site, it is like a tornado went over, mucking up everything on its way. If that type of diving is appealing to you then by all means! There are so many of them around and they will accept you with open arms! Post like yours is a music to their ears as it gives them a sense of assurance that I am cool the way I am!

I too can think about a lot of hypothetical scenarios where being horizontal does not have any advantage. After all, none of us can climb a boat ladder when we are in perfect trim right? Once I am on the boat I cant walk to the bench without compromising my horizontal position and above all, UTD Essentials never taught me how to go to the head and pee while being in horizontal trim.

But, at the risk of sounding like a DIR cultist (I am TDI by the way,) I will state that horizontal trim needs to be mastered! You can abandon it when you find necessary AFTER you have mastered it. Why? Because it is the foundational position from which a divers movement should originate and when your movement ends, that is where you should find yourself to be. It enables you to move forward, backward and turn on the same spot without mucking up the bottom. It also enables you to ascend and descend on the same spot without mucking up the bottom.

Give me someone who has not mastered trim. Then ask them to turn around on the same spot, move back ten paces, ascend ten feet like like a helicopter, stop at the target depth and turn or pivot on the same spot without moving forward or backward then do a valve drill while being in that exact same position. This is Clare Gledhill.




I would rather have her precision then someone whose sense of pride comes from the fact that they can be upright in a drift so that they could overshoot someone who is not being swept with the same momentum as they are.

 

[Blackcrusader]

I will state that horizontal trim needs to be mastered! You can abandon it when you find necessary AFTER you have mastered it.

I have mastered it. Was part of my course requirement from my BSAC instructor in the 1980's
I have also abandoned it when it suits me.

 

[AJ]

You do a real frog kick, not a feet up fin flipping/sculling movement which is not a true frog kick BTW.

Well, I can't do a frog kick that way, maybe because I'am not a frog. Please show some video how you do a real frog kick.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I

Well, I can't do a frog kick that way, maybe because I'am not a frog. Please show some video how you do a real frog kick.

don’t have any video’s.
I don’t have an U/W video camera and since I mostly solo dove I have no way of filming myself. But I’ll do the best I can to find something on the internet when time allows.
A real frog kick is one of the easiest things to do. You pull your legs up to your sides, flare your fins out and push back and squeeze your feet together with your feet turned in. Your legs should be straight back behind you when you finish the stroke and then you glide.
I do not dive in caves or silty environments or anywhere near a mud bottom. If I do my feet are up, but if I’m cruising out on the open ocean floor of the Norcal Pacific I pick the best finning method that suits the task. A lot of times the task is to cover a lot of ground. I normally leave room between me and the bottom. Diving in a skydiver position with feet up doing a fin flipping scull with arms outstretched and hands clasped in perfect DIR position does not work for me in all situations, and in fact I find that it works less and less for most of the diving I do. I rarely need to back up or rotate on an axis. Many times the currents and surge around the rocks doesn’t allow for it anyway, it’s a waste of time as the water is never still enough for those techniques to be effective.
I am tech trained and had all that stuff mastered by 2002.
I’ve moved on.

 

[Subcooled]

How would you do the frog kick that way?

I am swimming 800m a day, four days a week. I keep my face in the water, I keep my back arced, I keep my ass (and heels) near the surface, I keep my trim. My frog kicks are pretty effective and I am nearly flat in the water. Frog kicks push water BACKWARDS. There is no vertical component needed in propulsion. The same is true with fins: you push backwards. Doing the frog kick with 90 degree bent knees is fine and elegant if the bottom is muddy, but a flat out trim is more efficient where siltout is not a thing to consider.

 

[Subcooled]

People are often mis-instructed when they are taught to either "arch their back" or "pull their head up." In a perfect trim, you should think "relax my spine." This would cause your spine to relax into an arched position rather than being "twisted" into an arched position. It should be a relaxed and calming posture.

You say: "This would cause your spine to relax into an arched position"

Are you REALLY sure that instructing people to completely relax their backs will make their backs arch?
Gravity has an inverse effect!

I have seen my dive buddy, who relaxes his spine. It is not pretty. Yes, he is tied to that metal plate, but it does not stop his feet from dragging.

Perhaps you mean something like "keep you back slightly arched but do not overdo it"?

Pulling the head up is suboptimal as it increases drag
[and I know nothing about backmount diving],
but it is very important indeed to see where you are going.
So, it really depends.
Are you fighting a current or do you want to see where you are going?
I suggest you master both positions, and choose intelligently!

In sidemount diving I do need to arch my back, because there is no suspension from a backplate. I need to keep a form where garavity, not a wing, pulls me horizontal. The same is true for swimming.

But, at the risk of sounding like a DIR cultist (I am TDI by the way,) I will state that horizontal trim needs to be mastered!

Sorry captain, but that will not qualify you as a cultist.

Optimal horizontal trim minimizes drag.
Any other position sucks in most cases.
- Makes you tired.
- Consumes your gas.
- Strangles you in your drysuit.
- Induces unnecessary risk.

 

[dmaziuk]

I am swimming 800m a day, four days a week. I keep my face in the water, I keep my back arced, I keep my ass (and heels) near the surface, I keep my trim. My frog kicks are pretty effective and I am nearly flat in the water. Frog kicks push water BACKWARDS. There is no vertical component needed in propulsion. The same is true with fins: you push backwards. Doing the frog kick with 90 degree bent knees is fine and elegant if the bottom is muddy, but a flat out trim is more efficient where siltout is not a thing to consider.

Actually in the breaststroke "frog" kick the feet work as propeller blades, they don't "push" much. That's where frog kick in fins is different: in fins it's much more of a push. You can still "propeller" the fins: try the helicopter turn with your knees straight. I'm not sure about "modified frog" with knees bent 90 degrees, I suspect it might be more "propeller" that "push", or maybe not.

Also if you swim breaststroke w/o fins on the surface, you're actually better off kicking downwards and getting your body to "wave" (or "undulate") through the water rather than trying to stay flat.

 

[Subcooled]

Actually in the breaststroke "frog" kick the feet work as propeller blades, they don't "push" much.

This is an interesting conversation, thank you for it!

I know the propeller action from sculling (it's a way of reversing if the legs cannot be used - or in addition to the legs - or for fine tuning).

When I think really hard, then yes, I believe that there are two forms of "frog kick":
- a propeller action with fins... although I do not believe that it requires 90 degree bent knees... can't you do the propeller action with straight legs instead? I have to test this!!! I do not think however, that any living frog out there would rely on propeller action.
- Hence: a push action with the bottom of your feet is the more authentic frog kick and seems to work just fine without fins.

That's where "modified frog" in fins is different: fins do provide much more push.

Yes, they do. Fins are effective.

try the helicopter turn with your knees straight.

I have to try that!
I only know that I can swim SIDEWAYS with my knees straight.
Now, lets remove the sculling, or reverse the sculling, and I'm pretty sure I can helicopter turn with my legs straight!
I have to test this on monday! (everything is closed for christmas now)

Also if you swim breaststroke w/o fins on the surface, you're actually better off kicking downwards and getting your body to "wave" (or "undulate") through the water rather than trying to stay flat.

Reminds me of the dolphin kick. You might have a point. I've only tried to emulate diving in my surface swims as I am not that much intererested in speed at the surface but at efficiency under water - be it for scuba or freediving. Breast strokes at the surface should be directed slightly downwards to make breathing more elegant.

I am practising underwater swimming (with a snorkel on the surface) - an unholy combo

I do disagree with you on some points, but I love this conversation, as some of your points are really thought provoking, and need to be verified, and I could actually learn something from this. And you could, too. Oh, sorry for my arrogance,

 

[dmaziuk]

Her's'...
Reminds me of the dolphin kick. You might have a point. I've only tried to emulate diving in my surface swims as I am not that much intererested in speed at the surface but at efficiency under water - be it for scuba or freediving. Breast strokes at the surface should be directed slightly downwards to make breathing more elegant.

Here's a fun drill, I should try it sometime:

I do disagree with you on some points, but I love this conversation, as some of your points are really thought provoking, and need to be verified, and I could actually learn something from this. And you could, too. Oh, sorry for my arrogance,

I'll be the first to admit I've no idea how the "modified frog" kick in fins actually works. I doubt it was studied much, if at all, so I don't expect many people do. It's not like the Olympic swimming styles: those have been disected and analyzed a lot.

 

[Subcooled]

It's not like the Olympic swimming styles: those have been disected and analyzed a lot.

You are correct. And you gave me so pretty good ideas to test.

Should I ever admit that I was wrong?
Yes, certainly IF i'm wrong,