Thank heavens for PADI

[Capnsnott]

Mike,
I agree with the training standards issues. I have to keep that seperate from my original posts, I do think the industry has benefited from the sheer number of divers and money PADI has brought to the table.
I do feel the training standards are too lax. I sat and watched OW and AOW classes at the Blue Hole last weekend. It blows me away how much gets overlooked by instructors and how bad students can be and still passed. How an AOW student can bounce off the bottom of a 70' hole, kick up the bottom in a matter of secounds and get passed is beyond me. I did my deep dive training in Hal Wat's grotto. I'd be dead if I was that out of control. Bouyancy was something I had control of way before I even thought of doing an AOW class though, that came from having a good dive buddy (my dad) and his instructor.
The issues I see that need to be dealt with are actually simple.
1) a student needs to know what it is to dive correctly. Proper bouyancy, trim control, finning techniques, buddy skills......
2) a student needs to have an instructor that can demonstrate them and teach them. And hold the student accountable for at least trying to better the skill.

To me it's really that simple, I know nobody gets it perfect the first time. Repetition perfects the skills. BUT you have to know what they are in the first place.

PS, I still can't do the frog kick correclty, I haven't found an instructor that can teach it either. What's up with that?

Greg

 

[MikeFerrara]

better buouyancy skills and taught earlier.

Anything more?

Somehow I don't think you grasp my point about the standards for OW dive 1.

Have you read the standards? If you're not putting the point of dive 1 per the standards (practice) and the fact that it's allowed to do it before they've been given anything to paractice to gether you might want to spend some time with an instructors manual before we continue.

The point is that PADI states that a main goal of OW dive one is to practice buoyancy control (from memory I even think it's a bold print performance requirement for the dive) yet the standards allow you to do the dive before CW 3 when buoyancy control is introduced. LOL


I'll check on that.

 

[MikeFerrara]

To me it's really that simple, I know nobody gets it perfect the first time. Repetition perfects the skills. BUT you have to know what they are in the first place.

I think letting students see it done well is half the battle. A couple years ago I tried something and it worked great!

First I have some video of great divers and some of some not so great divers that I show in class.

second
In my class the students never see a DM or instructor touch the bottom. Even when we demo skills in shallow water we do it off the bottom and horizontal. In addition I never have students kneel. In the beginning when they can't keep from touching the bottom I have them stay prone. We go through life vertical except when sleeping so we have to break the habit/reflex of wanting to go vertical every time we go to do something.

By the end of the introduction of some of the shallow skills a portion of the class will be getting off the bottom on their own just to copy us. That's before I've asked them to or showed them how. If the instructor kneels the student will practice kneeling. If you dive well the student will practice diving well.

Of course all this makes it hard to get divemasters because I just haven't found to many who can demo skills off the bottom and horizontal in 3 or 4 feet of water.

PS, I still can't do the frog kick correclty, I haven't found an instructor that can teach it either. What's up with that?

Greg

I know. It's a requirement to teach the flutter kick in a PADI OW class but no other kick is required. In fact I can't recall another kick being required in any PADI class so there's a good chance that any given instructor may only have ever done a flutter kick.

The problem with that is that with a silty bottom a flutter kick (the way it's taught) can blow the vis even when you're 5 or 10 feet off the bottom and trimmed fairly well. If the student is off the bottom a ways the explosions (that's what they look like) will be a ways behind the student so even the rare few who are trying to watch what they're doing won't even see the terrible mess they're making. A frog kick or even a modified flutter combined with some approximation of trim completely solves the problem and keeps the dive site clear for those who come behind them.

 

[MikeFerrara]

ok I checked.

The PADI instructor manual states that one of the goals of dive 1 is to practice buoyancy control but it's not an actual performance requirement (in bold print) and in fact would be a standards violation if dive one takes place right after CW dive 1 because buoyancy control isn't introduced until CW 3.

In dive 2 and 3 it's required that buoyancy control on the bottom be demonstrated by performing a fin pivot. BTW, what is buoyancy control ON THE BOTTOM?

In dive 4 the diver must get neutral at some point in the dive (used to be a 1 minute hover).

Other than that thing in dive 4 the student could be on the bottom the entire time in OW and meet the requirements.

I also checked and buoyancy control isn't required to be demonstrated in AOW at all unless the student does a peak performance buoyancy control dive but that isn't required.

Aside for a neutral byoyant ascent there isn't any buoyancy requirement in the rescue class.

In the DM course there is demonstration quality skills...ok Look up the silly list yourself.


Gee it looks to me like buoyancy control while diving isn't required in the entire PADI educational progression and you can in fact become an instructor without ever demonstrating that you can DIVE neutrally buoyant never mind trim or anti-silting (coral killing) techniques..

It also looks like all the shops and instructors who I have always thought were doing such a rotten job are in fact teaching PADI classes exactly as they're specified.

Since it isn't required that an instructor ever demonstrate good buoyancy control and it's not required for them to teach it we really can't fault the instructors for not knowing and/or teaching it can we?

Walter's right, agency does matter.

I propose a terminology change...underwater kneeling. What do ya think?

Lawman,

to answer your question, it's not a matter of teaching buoyancy control earlier. It's a matter of teaching it at all!

I guess that for starters I'd be happy to see them require it of divemasters and instructors. If they understood it they would probably teach it even without it being a requirement.

 

[sheck33]

Amen to that Mike.

Same is pretty much true for airmanagement skills

 

[TCDiver1]

Gee it looks to me like buoyancy control while diving isn't required in the entire PADI educational progression and you can in fact become an instructor without ever demonstrating that you can DIVE neutrally buoyant never mind trim or anti-silting (coral killing) techniques..

Mike, i know your passionate about this but do you have to be so melodramatic about it? Would you have passed your IE had you not been able to dive neutral? I know i wouldn't have. Not even close.

PADI training = coral killing ..... :06:

I try to stay out of this discussion now because no one is convincing anyone of much of anything IMO. The argument is too circular. You can no more prove the system is busted without valid stats, than others can proof the system is okay without valid stats. All internet wizardry aside, you can't have it both ways.

And who determines how many injuries or deaths should pull the trigger on initiating change? This "one is too many" argument is great for the movies but doesn't hold water in real life, lest we be banned from driving our autos, etc.

I've trained hundreds of divers the PADI way too and for the most part, they do just fine without tilling or coral killing. It is very possible to do even though you tend to make it sound impossible.

Either way, so much is left up to the student to maintain. After OW class, i could have a student trimmed & hovering like a fast attack submarine but if they don't work on keeping the skill up, they will lose it will they not? How is that my or your or any agencies fault?

I think back to my basic OW class in the late 70's and recall the instructor was more concerned about making us do pushups with our scuba units on or ripping our masks off underwater than he was with our buoyancy control. He could of cared less if we were walking on the bottom as long as he could see us enough to turn our air off and see how we reacted.

So when it comes to PADI's buoyancy control training, things have not changed that much from my experience.

I did take a quick look at IANTD's standards and the biggest difference i did see is watermanship skills. I really like what IANTD is doing there. No doubt in my mind that PADI's watermanship skills have been simplified and made easier over the years.

 

[scubadoguk]

Mike, i know your passionate about this but do you have to be so melodramatic about it? Would you have passed your IE had you not been able to dive neutral? I know i wouldn't have. Not even close.

PADI training = coral killing ..... :06:

I try to stay out of this discussion now because no one is convincing anyone of much of anything IMO. The argument is too circular. You can no more prove the system is busted without valid stats, than others can proof the system is okay without valid stats. All internet wizardry aside, you can't have it both ways.

And who determines how many injuries or deaths should pull the trigger on initiating change? This "one is too many" argument is great for the movies but doesn't hold water in real life, lest we be banned from driving our autos, etc.

I've trained hundreds of divers the PADI way too and for the most part, they do just fine without tilling or coral killing. It is very possible to do even though you tend to make it sound impossible.

Either way, so much is left up to the student to maintain. After OW class, i could have a student trimmed & hovering like a fast attack submarine but if they don't work on keeping the skill up, they will lose it will they not? How is that my or your or any agencies fault?

I think back to my basic OW class in the late 70's and recall the instructor was more concerned about making us do pushups with our scuba units on or ripping our masks off underwater than he was with our buoyancy control. He could of cared less if we were walking on the bottom as long as he could see us enough to turn our air off and see how we reacted.

So when it comes to PADI's buoyancy control training, things have not changed that much from my experience.

I did take a quick look at IANTD's standards and the biggest difference i did see is watermanship skills. I really like what IANTD is doing there. No doubt in my mind that PADI's watermanship skills have been simplified and made easier over the years.

Can some one kill this BLAH BLAH thread

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike, i know your passionate about this but do you have to be so melodramatic about it? Would you have passed your IE had you not been able to dive neutral? I know i wouldn't have. Not even close.

What I stated was an accurate description of what's in the standards. Yes I would have passed the IE if I wasn't neutral. The entire in-water portion was spent teaching skills to kneeling divers while we were on out knees. Never at any point was diving technique evaluated. All demonstration skills were performed kneeling. no examiner ever even actually seen me dive.

The IDC was the same with time spent demonstrating and teaching skills while on my knees.

Of course through all of this the course directors and examiners were also kneeling.

Come to think of it I never saw any of them dive either.

PADI training = coral killing ..... :06:

I try to stay out of this discussion now because no one is convincing anyone of much of anything IMO. The argument is too circular. You can no more prove the system is busted without valid stats, than others can proof the system is okay without valid stats. All internet wizardry aside, you can't have it both ways.

I showed a simple and obvious lack of buoyancy control requirements in the training standards. You can argue whether or not it's a problem but you can't argue what's in print in the instructor manual.

Some argue that an OW diver doesn't need to learn it. I disagree but ok. However to justify the standards you have to argue that no diver ever needs to learn it because it isn't required EVER

And who determines how many injuries or deaths should pull the trigger on initiating change? This "one is too many" argument is great for the movies but doesn't hold water in real life, lest we be banned from driving our autos, etc.

Forget the deaths. Lets talk about what's written in the standards and compare that to how classes are taught!

I've trained hundreds of divers the PADI way too and for the most part, they do just fine without tilling or coral killing. It is very possible to do even though you tend to make it sound impossible.

Of course you have and so have I. The FACT is that PADI doesn't require it so all the instructors who aren't teaching it are doing just fine as far as PADI is concerned.

Either way, so much is left up to the student to maintain. After OW class, i could have a student trimmed & hovering like a fast attack submarine but if they don't work on keeping the skill up, they will lose it will they not? How is that my or your or any agencies fault?

True but the agency doesn't require them to ever learn it in the first place.

I think back to my basic OW class in the late 70's and recall the instructor was more concerned about making us do pushups with our scuba units on or ripping our masks off underwater than he was with our buoyancy control. He could of cared less if we were walking on the bottom as long as he could see us enough to turn our air off and see how we reacted.

So when it comes to PADI's buoyancy control training, things have not changed that much from my experience.

Correct.

I did take a quick look at IANTD's standards and the biggest difference i did see is watermanship skills. I really like what IANTD is doing there. No doubt in my mind that PADI's watermanship skills have been simplified and made easier over the years.

Check out the skill evaluation that must be done for every dive in every class. Overall technique and buddy skills ect are evaluated for every dive.

In order to complete the class in the minimum allowable number of dives the student must average a score of 8 out of 10. If the student doesn't they can be passes with a couple more dives and an average score of six (because the score was brought down by the bad dives)

While it's true that the scoring is subjective and I may not give the exact same score as you would the message that the skills are to be evaluated is clear.

In the PADI standards those skills are simply not required to be demonstrated ever.

As I stated before I'm certainly not holding IANTD standards as a model of perfection. I used them for contrast to answer Lawmans question.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Can some one kill this BLAH BLAH thread

I stated what I see as clear deficiencies in the standards and you respond by whining.

If you're going to post to the thread, contribute to the discussion. If you're not interested then why don't you just stay out of it?

 

[H2Andy]

yeah, i don't understand how that post contributes to what has been a very
instructive thread.

you don't have to read the thread if you think it's a waste of time.