Thank heavens for PADI

[Scubakevdm]

Don't worry kids, there are places you can dive without the Hovering Geschtapo coming after you. Most people think that your C card is just the beginning of your training, that you don't have to be a perfect diver right from the start, and they will help you. Diving to most people is fun, our eyes don't bulge, and our veins don't pop out if a new diver needs help. Helping new divers is what I like most about my job. You won't hear alot from us though, 'cause we're probably out diving or doing something fun instead of suffering through this God-awful thread.

 

[gj62]

Don't worry kids, there are places you can dive without the Hovering Geschtapo coming after you. Most people think that your C card is just the beginning of your training, that you don't have to be a perfect diver right from the start, and they will help you. Diving to most people is fun, our eyes don't bulge, and our veins don't pop out if a new diver needs help. Helping new divers is what I like most about my job. You won't hear alot from us though, 'cause we're probably out diving or doing something fun instead of suffering through this God-awful thread.

:11: You mean you live where you can dive? What a novel concept! Wish I did - but since I don't, I manage to keep sane by lengthening this God-awful thread

 

[MikeFerrara]

Nobody is questioning your experience, only your presumption at redefining a word.

Again, I said unbiased. Also, to be fair, this would have to apply worldwide - you yourself have said your site is somewhat peculiar.

I don't recall saying that. Our sites while different from the Caribbean they are typical of the local environment.

Your arguement appears to change based upon people's replies. At times argue that it's all those untrained divers out there that are causing all the problems, being a safety hazard and silting up your quarry. Then you argue you really don't need training at all...

No my arguement doesn't change.

I never said that I think diving without training is a good idea. Poorly skilled divers do cause and get into trouble. of course, I wouldn't fly without training either.

My arguement is with the industries insistance on a card while at the same time they are determined to keep the standards so low that the card doesn't mean much. Seems like a contradiction to me.

You know...On one hand they're saying "Diving is so dangerous that you absolutely need training" ...On the other hand...they say..."But don't worry, it's as safe as bowling, you can even bring your ten year old child, you don't need to know much or be very good at it and we can wrap that up for you in a couple of hours for $100".

 

[MikeFerrara]

Don't worry kids, there are places you can dive without the Hovering Geschtapo coming after you. Most people think that your C card is just the beginning of your training, that you don't have to be a perfect diver right from the start, and they will help you. Diving to most people is fun, our eyes don't bulge, and our veins don't pop out if a new diver needs help. Helping new divers is what I like most about my job. You won't hear alot from us though, 'cause we're probably out diving or doing something fun instead of suffering through this God-awful thread.

Are you saying that those of us who aren't happy with the state of dive training don't spend time helping new or inexperienced divers?

I'm not so sure that's fair. I often do it for free. For you it sounds like it's a Job.

I too think a card is just the beginning. It's just that some of us have a different idea of where you should start. Like our earlier conversation about whether or not it's ok to dive if you need the instructor to work the bc for you. Wasn't it you who thought it was ok. See...I don't.

 

[gj62]

Nobody is questioning your experience, only your presumption at redefining a word.

Again, I said unbiased. Also, to be fair, this would have to apply worldwide - you yourself have said your site is somewhat peculiar.

I don't recall saying that. Our sites while different from the Caribbean they are typical of the local environment.

You indicated in an earlier post that another instructor had commented (as I did) that we do not see near the issues when we are diving than you do. It was only after that person visited with you that they saw the issue - at your site.

It may be indicative of dive sites in your area, but that shouldn't prevent the majority from enjoying the Caribbean destinations without the skill command required of diving in your quarry.

No my arguement doesn't change.

I never said that I think diving without training is a good idea. Poorly skilled divers do cause and get into trouble. of course, I wouldn't fly without training either.

My arguement is with the industries insistance on a card while at the same time they are determined to keep the standards so low that the card doesn't mean much. Seems like a contradiction to me.

You know...On one hand they're saying "Diving is so dangerous that you absolutely need training" ...On the other hand...they say..."But don't worry, it's as safe as bowling, you can even bring your ten year old child, you don't need to know much or be very good at it and we can wrap that up for you in a couple of hours for $100".

There's no contradiction here. What the agencies are saying is that with a minimal amount of training and instruction, you can enjoy a new sport in comparable safety. Obviously, they're doing something right, or else we would see more accidents.

Of course, you can argue that the C-card is a scam - but then you're voting for requiring no training - which you just said was not a good idea. You can also argue that the training isn't good enough, in which case we should see more accidents and overall dissatisfaction, which is not the case.

We've both dragged each other over our own fence more than enough times - I'm not going to see it your way, as you will likely not see it mine. 'Nuff said, at least on this topic.

 

[Walter]

Some people are aware. Some people open their eyes. Others refuse to see. Every place I dive, I see evidence of poorly trained divers. I see instructors who aren't ready for their OW card. Most people don't see these things. They either refuse to see it or they don't have the ability to see it. I guess there are some of each.

Mike,

This horse is dead, buddy. You are right, but you're trying to convince people to see something they will never see. They either refuse to believe the truth or they don't know the difference between good training and poor. Nothing we can say will change that. Nothing we can say will cause PADI to fix their standards. Concentrate on what you can accomplish. Teach your classes the way they should be taught (I know you will). Answer questions honestly and sincerely (as you've been doing). Help those few with open minds to see the light. Stop beating this dead horse. PADI standards make me cringe, but what's the point? If someone hasn't seen it after 585 posts, they aren't going to see it. Move on, my friend, let this thread die.

 

[gj62]

Some people are aware. Some people open their eyes. Others refuse to see. Every place I dive, I see evidence of poorly trained divers. I see instructors who aren't ready for their OW card. Most people don't see these things. They either refuse to see it or they don't have the ability to see it. I guess there are some of each.

Mike,

This horse is dead, buddy. You are right, but you're trying to convince people to see something they will never see.

Actually, you agree with his opinion - I don't believe any of us on this thread is "right", in so far as your viewpoint is the one that matters and should be adopted.

They either refuse to believe the truth or they don't know the difference between good training and poor. Nothing we can say will change that. Nothing we can say will cause PADI to fix their standards. Concentrate on what you can accomplish. Teach your classes the way they should be taught (I know you will). Answer questions honestly and sincerely (as you've been doing). Help those few with open minds to see the light. Stop beating this dead horse. PADI standards make me cringe, but what's the point? If someone hasn't seen it after 585 posts, they aren't going to see it. Move on, my friend, let this thread die.

Bad counsel, Walter.

In fact, if he believes as strongly as he professes, he should continue this debate in a larger forum, demand action from PADI, refuse to accept PADI cards at his shop for fills, etc until the industry kneels to his intellect and foresight. Without it, we are all doomed...

Somewhere in this post, a tongue was inserted in cheek, but you can choose to ignore it if you wish...

 

[Walter]

There are none so blind as he who will not see.

 

[gj62]

There are none so blind as he who will not see.

Ah yes, J. Swift. However, I'd counter that in the world of country of the blind, the one eyed man is king - Erasmus. Argh, matey!

 

[MikeFerrara]

You indicated in an earlier post that another instructor had commented (as I did) that we do not see near the issues when we are diving than you do. It was only after that person visited with you that they saw the issue - at your site.

I remember that. He isn't an instructor but no matter. The unique thing about these sites is that you can see hundreds of divers in a day on a busy weekend in the summer. Other than that they're pretty tame for site at this lititude.

It may be indicative of dive sites in your area, but that shouldn't prevent the majority from enjoying the Caribbean destinations without the skill command required of diving in your quarry.

Maybe we need a special certification for tropical diving with a DM?

Of course, you can argue that the C-card is a scam - but then you're voting for requiring no training - which you just said was not a good idea.

That's only true if our only choices are this training or no training. There are other choices

You can also argue that the training isn't good enough, in which case we should see more accidents and overall dissatisfaction, which is not the case.

This is only true if you assume that no training would result in more accidents than the training that's common. But...even at that I think that just doing a search of this board will yield a colorful arrayy of accidents and close calls.

Of my last half a dozen trips or so to local sites I've seen serious incedents on all but one trip and all but like 2 of those required EMS response. On one occassion I spent time talking to a very small boy after he watched his mother pulled screaming from the water. He was on the dive BTW. The time before it was a diver who suffered a rapid ascent for unknown reasons. Some of the people I was with helped clear the road so the ambulance could get in. I used to keep track of each individual incedent but I've lost track. One of them was a student who bolted. The instructor almost drowned him trying to tow him to shore. It was pathetic to see. To be honest, I don't want to go back. If you all think it's so good you can have it.

We've both dragged each other over our own fence more than enough times - I'm not going to see it your way, as you will likely not see it mine. 'Nuff said, at least on this topic.

I agree but you know while I've been typing my wife has been watching "Deep Sea Detectives" behind me. They showed some film of a bunch of rec divers on the Mississinawaw (sp)?

Alternates were dangling consoles were dangling, all the divers were vertical and when I turned to look there wasn't a single buddy team visable.

Even though these divers weren't in a class I bring these things up because I see more students with dangling equipment than without, no trim and following the instructor or DM as a group without ever being asked to practice diving in buddy teams.

Just how much darned trouble is required for an instructor to dress his students to standards? Standards do require streamlined equipment by the way. Why doesn't the agency hit some instructors and shops up about these standards violations. They know about it because we see pictures of it in their own magazines!

How much trouble is it to ask divers to demonstrate that they can swim together and be aware of each other?

A recent accident posted about on this site. A buddy (an instructor I think) turnes around and her buddy is gone. found later dead. One of her freinds stated that she always was good about following just behind and above. WOW, the worst possible place to be...exactly in the other divers blind spot.

These habits do cause injuries. It doesn't take much teaching to cover these basic points.

So my question is...why the hell shouldn't it be taught and why shouldn't it be required that it's taught? Cost? trouble? Maybe the people writting the standards and doing the teachind are to busy to learn it!

It's a dis-service, it's incompetance and it does cause accidents. I'm sorry it isn't enough to count. I hope it never is.