H2Andy:
I totally agree.
Thank heavens for PADI
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I totally agree.
gj62:
no, I'm not argueing that they've been at the forefron of promoting THE INDUSTRY.
I'm argueing that I don't think it's been all good for diving. What are they promoting? The fact that you can be an underwater tourist with almost no training? ok maybe you can but they call it diving. I don't.
The promotion of underwater tourism and the promotion od diving are too very different things as far as I'm concerned.
It certainly hasen't made for inexpensive equipment. Not when they and the manufacturers try to keep such tight control on the supply chain and the availability of parts and information.
spiderman:
That would depend on your definition or "forward" and your definition of "diving".
the student always has final control over what kind of diver they turn out to be. However, they have less control if the agency and the instructor doesn't do a good job of distinguishing good from bad. You can't meet a goal if you don't have one.
It also doesn't help that every one gets a card. The difference is that with some instructors the student has to do it before getting certified and with others they just get turned loose. Reference the lady mentioned above with the 45 dives and not comfortable enough to dive without direct supervission. She shouldn't have been certified.
The agency sets the bar for both the instructor and the student and we're dealing with an extremely LOW bar.
H2Andy
Contributor
i am thinking outloud. let's keep the scenario simple: take your average day in
the Cayman Islands, with tons of dive boats full of less-than-trained divers
in terms of bouyancy and trim:
who benefits from sending these divers into the reef ecosystem?
first, those who DON'T benefit:
*the reef does not benefit, because it gets stressed beyond what stresses are already there...
*those who want to keep visiting the reef and find it in good condition don't benefit...
and now those who DO benefit:
*the poorly trained divers who are not aware of the damage they might be doing, because they get to dive and do something terribly fun
*the local dive operators who charge money to get the divers out to sea and
sell them air and/or equipment
*the local businesses that cater to the divers, be it selling booze or food, and their
suppliers
*the local population, who, if the local government manages things well, has jobs
and a better standard of living through the divers expenditures at restaurants, hotels, etc. which creates local jobs
*the various entities that get the divers to the island (airlines, travel agents, cruise lines, whatever)
*the dive shop(s) back home who train and sell gear to the divers
*the dive gear manufacturers and their component part manufacturers and suppliers,
if any
*the agencies that set up training programs (such as PADI, NAUI, etc.)
*ancilliary agencies, such as DAN, that cater to divers by providing insurance, information, etc.
*publications (such as Rodale's) that target the diving market and rake in advertising
dollars.
i'm sure there are more... these are just off the top of my head
the key to this whole structure is getting MORE divers into the pipeline; that translates into more dollars being spent so all the beneficiaries can get a larger
and larger cut.
sorry for laying out the obvious
the Cayman Islands, with tons of dive boats full of less-than-trained divers
in terms of bouyancy and trim:
who benefits from sending these divers into the reef ecosystem?
first, those who DON'T benefit:
*the reef does not benefit, because it gets stressed beyond what stresses are already there...
*those who want to keep visiting the reef and find it in good condition don't benefit...
and now those who DO benefit:
*the poorly trained divers who are not aware of the damage they might be doing, because they get to dive and do something terribly fun
*the local dive operators who charge money to get the divers out to sea and
sell them air and/or equipment
*the local businesses that cater to the divers, be it selling booze or food, and their
suppliers
*the local population, who, if the local government manages things well, has jobs
and a better standard of living through the divers expenditures at restaurants, hotels, etc. which creates local jobs
*the various entities that get the divers to the island (airlines, travel agents, cruise lines, whatever)
*the dive shop(s) back home who train and sell gear to the divers
*the dive gear manufacturers and their component part manufacturers and suppliers,
if any
*the agencies that set up training programs (such as PADI, NAUI, etc.)
*ancilliary agencies, such as DAN, that cater to divers by providing insurance, information, etc.
*publications (such as Rodale's) that target the diving market and rake in advertising
dollars.
i'm sure there are more... these are just off the top of my head
the key to this whole structure is getting MORE divers into the pipeline; that translates into more dollars being spent so all the beneficiaries can get a larger
and larger cut.
sorry for laying out the obvious
gj62
Contributor
You seem to be saying that if PADI changed the wording from "diver" to "UW tourist", you would support their activities.MikeFerrara:
The accident rate in comparison with other sports/pasttimes shows that you can successfully participate with a minimum of training and experience. It may not meet what you would like to have as the minimum standard, but that's a ridiculous arguement. I don't like all the newbie skiers getting hurt, increasing insurance costs, etc, but I'm not out there arguing that they should need a c-card to get a lift ticket...
If manufacturer's were truly successful at limiting the availability of equipment and parts by controlling the supply chain, other manufacturers would step in to fulfill the demand - exactly what has happened to some extent. Also, if you are willing to put forth a little effort, in most areas you can easily come by such equipment for much less than the controlled supply chain you refer to.MikeFerrara:
Simply put, without market size, options such as ScubaToys, LiesurePro etc would not exist, which makes diving more affordable. Lower demand would mean that competition would be greatly decreased. You'd be stuck with whatever the low volume manufacturer wanted to charge. Simple economics. It applies the same to diving as any other industry, and it is foolish to argue otherwise.
Capnsnott
Contributor
I have an interesting side note on the student instructor thing.
Other dimwhitted students in the class can bring down a "serious about learning" student if the instructor dosen't step in. I had a great case in point this past weekend. My brother and I finished our PADI Rescue classes. It was just the two of us and three instructors tag teeming on us. We had the main one and two others that were doing other classes helping out. We got a bunch out of it because we were dead serious about the class. On the other hand.....
Long story, There was another class from another LDS there as well. Of the seven people in that class, only one we saw was really taking it seriously. That student was having trouble keeping focused because of the other morons. I think the instructor was not aware of how bad the situation was till after she got going with the non responsive diver rescue. She literally sat face down in the water for two minutes while her class screwed around watching her, the other guy was rescuing her other instructor. I finally asked them if anyone was going to rescue her and one of the guys decided he would. BTW, they wern't PADI.
All agencies have their fill of nimrods, I think PADI catches most of the grief because they do so many people.
Mike,
I agree that the big guys may not lead in advances. But if the sheer number of divers weren't so big, there wouldn't be enough cash to justify the R&D by the little guys. This is a simplified example, but it will get my point across, I hope. Take 500,000. divers and pull the tech guys out and let's say there are 10,000. of them. How are that few of people going to keep an industry alive? I agree the tech gear comes from little guys, that's good. That means better quality and control of the product. But, where did those tech divers come from. You yourself have pointed out that a diver needs a lot of experience before heading into tech diving. So who did joe diver get their gear from to do their first hundred + dives (other than me, Halcyon, MK25/s600s)? Big company sold them their stuff, it kept them alive for long enough to get into tech diving didn't it?
Long winded reply, hope you see what I'm saying. I give PADI some credit, but they aren't the end all, bee all. Just the biggest.
asta
G
Other dimwhitted students in the class can bring down a "serious about learning" student if the instructor dosen't step in. I had a great case in point this past weekend. My brother and I finished our PADI Rescue classes. It was just the two of us and three instructors tag teeming on us. We had the main one and two others that were doing other classes helping out. We got a bunch out of it because we were dead serious about the class. On the other hand.....
Long story, There was another class from another LDS there as well. Of the seven people in that class, only one we saw was really taking it seriously. That student was having trouble keeping focused because of the other morons. I think the instructor was not aware of how bad the situation was till after she got going with the non responsive diver rescue. She literally sat face down in the water for two minutes while her class screwed around watching her, the other guy was rescuing her other instructor. I finally asked them if anyone was going to rescue her and one of the guys decided he would. BTW, they wern't PADI.
All agencies have their fill of nimrods, I think PADI catches most of the grief because they do so many people.
Mike,
I agree that the big guys may not lead in advances. But if the sheer number of divers weren't so big, there wouldn't be enough cash to justify the R&D by the little guys. This is a simplified example, but it will get my point across, I hope. Take 500,000. divers and pull the tech guys out and let's say there are 10,000. of them. How are that few of people going to keep an industry alive? I agree the tech gear comes from little guys, that's good. That means better quality and control of the product. But, where did those tech divers come from. You yourself have pointed out that a diver needs a lot of experience before heading into tech diving. So who did joe diver get their gear from to do their first hundred + dives (other than me, Halcyon, MK25/s600s)? Big company sold them their stuff, it kept them alive for long enough to get into tech diving didn't it?
Long winded reply, hope you see what I'm saying. I give PADI some credit, but they aren't the end all, bee all. Just the biggest.
asta
G
gj62:
I wouldn't support it but I'd stop thinking of them as dishonest
First of all I didn't use the accident rate as an arguement. Second of all if one single diver is hurt because they've been falsly lead to believe that they're qualified then maybe that one is too many. A diver can jump in and dive without any instruction at all and stand a good chance of not getting hurt. If most divers weren't following a DM around though I wonder what the stats would look like.
I don't think any one should need a c-card. In fact I think that's a big part of the problem. In the years I ran a dive shop I came to realize that most people buy A CARD because they're told they need one and not because they want training. They buy the fastest an cheapest only because they need one and they niether know how to choose good training or try to. This keeps all the shlocks in business.
If the cards weren't a default requirement then divers would only pay for training that they saw as a real value to them and the card sellers would run out of a market.
This card thing is a scam. Note please that I'm not saying that divers shouldn't seek training just that buying cards and training are vey different and one doesn't imply the other.
gj62
Contributor
Dishonest? Because of your odd definition of diving? You're being funny, right?MikeFerrara:
No, but it is the only unbiased measure of the job that the certifying agencies cirriculum and instructor corps are doing in regards to educating/training divers enough to be safe.MikeFerrara:
C'mon, to apply this to other sports, if I say you can ski blue/black and you find one that is harder then the others and break your leg, it's my fault, the person who rated the slope? If you are certified in simple tropics and choose to do a difficult dive in cold water, is it the agency, or the student who is at fault?
The acceptable ratio can't be 0 - you'd never certify anyone.
Giggle, giggle. Most of the posts on this board talk about how divers that have at least been presented and are knowledgeable of the risks get hurt doing something stupid. Now, you want to allow people to say, "I'm smart, I can just read this book, rent my tank, and in I go?" In the years of dealing with people who knew nothing about diving, you're saying that they would reach the conclusion that they must spend hundreds of dollars on training? Remember - there's nothing common about common sense...MikeFerrara:
gj62:
Well, it might be "my odd definition" but I came by it by training hundreds of divers, owning a dive shop for almost 4 years, taking about every class there is from OW, specialties and instructor training through to cave and technical training and witnessing several accidents and many many near misses
I disagree that injury is the only measure. All you have to do is look around at a popular dive site. That is if you can see through the silt.
Like I said things don't work out so well when they try to dive without supervision. The way training is often done it'a almost assumed that supervised resort diving is the students goal.
I don't get it. You don't need a c-card to snow ski, water ski, race motorcycles or even to build and fly an untra-light plane! If PADI gets into any of those businesses you'll need a card though.
Actually in most places you don't need a card to dive either. You don't need a card to buy equipment. They just won't sell you air. Oh, wait...who won't sell you air? The shop...the same ones who sell the cards. LOL
Do you know why PADI shops can't sell air to a diver without a card? It's because to be a PDI shop you have to sign an agreement that among other things states that you can't. Oh...wait...but what is it that PADI sells? It's cards and books isn't it.
I hate to break it to you but I've taken many classes where the instructor didn't have a thing to offer beyond what was in the book. My OW class would be one of those. Are you saying that I couldn't have gotten by without them?
BTW, I dived for years before I went out and purchased a card. I started diving with my cousin who had an extra set of equipment. at least I could swim. LOL Not every one who has a c-card these days can. Even my cousin wouldn't have taken me diving if I couldn't swim. He made me stay off the bottom to. That's something else you don't have to do to get a card.
gj62
Contributor
Nobody is questioning your experience, only your presumption at redefining a word.MikeFerrara:
Again, I said unbiased. Also, to be fair, this would have to apply worldwide - you yourself have said your site is somewhat peculiar.MikeFerrara:
Half of your arguement is safety - have you looked at the safety statistics of these sports before you use them to compare?MikeFerrara:
That could be said of most college courses too - for certain individuals. It certainly is not true for the majority of the population. I agree, if we were all like you (or me) it would be alot different...MikeFerrara:
Your arguement appears to change based upon people's replies. At times argue that it's all those untrained divers out there that are causing all the problems, being a safety hazard and silting up your quarry. Then you argue you really don't need training at all...
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