Thank heavens for PADI

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gj62:
In fact, if he believes as strongly as he professes, he should continue this debate in a larger forum, demand action from PADI,

I don't know if you noticed but you don't demand anything from PADI. They listen to the shops that issue the most cards and those are the ones profiting the most from the lax standards and they love em. I did finally tire of their slop though and dropped my membership. I had lots of PADI instructor cards so that's lots of money down the tubes. LOL

PADI like the equipment manufacturers treats paying members more like employees than customers. For every instructor who gets fed up and moves on there are another dozen divers with 6 months experience who haven't nailed buoyancy control yet enrolling in an IDC. That's how they like em...
 
MikeFerrara:
The unique thing about these sites is that you can see hundreds of divers in a day on a busy weekend in the summer. Other than that they're pretty tame for site at this lititude.

Of my last half a dozen trips or so to local sites I've seen serious incedents on all but one trip and all but like 2 of those required EMS response.
I don't have an answer for this.

I was in the water in Monterey, CA 3 days every week for almost 3 years and remember only 2 serious incidents where an ambulance was called - one turned out ok, 1 didn't. The 1 that didn't was ruled heart attack. I'm not counting the tired newbies getting towed, seasick diver gagging on their reg, etc, but even if I did I would not say it was an egregious amount.

This wasn't Caribbean diving either - water temp 50-55 in the winter, when the viz is better, 55 to 58 in summer. There are a number of protected beach entries, so that's usually not a big deal, but there are a few dives with rough shore entries. There's usually some amount of surge. Generally you didn't have current on shore dives, because most of the diving was in coves or bays. However, because there are more sites, we didn't see 100s of divers at any one site - the max I can think of would be about 50 - 75 on really busy days at the more popular sites.

My experience there, and in my travel diving since moving from Monterey, is that the frequency with which serious incidents occur at your locations is anomalous.

Don't get me wrong - this does not make it any less serious, but coupled with the report from the other diver after seeing your spot, it does make me wonder if it is not a local issue, as I said before.

I'm not arguing that there is not room for improvement - both in instructor oversight or class content. I just don't see it with the same sense of urgency that you do. I think that is predominantly due to our direct experience, rather than a fundamental difference in how you should approach diving.
 
gj62:
I don't have an answer for this.

I was in the water in Monterey, CA 3 days every week for almost 3 years and remember only 2 serious incidents where an ambulance was called - one turned out ok, 1 didn't. The 1 that didn't was ruled heart attack. I'm not counting the tired newbies getting towed, seasick diver gagging on their reg, etc, but even if I did I would not say it was an egregious amount.

This wasn't Caribbean diving either - water temp 50-55 in the winter, when the viz is better, 55 to 58 in summer. There are a number of protected beach entries, so that's usually not a big deal, but there are a few dives with rough shore entries. There's usually some amount of surge. Generally you didn't have current on shore dives, because most of the diving was in coves or bays. However, because there are more sites, we didn't see 100s of divers at any one site - the max I can think of would be about 50 - 75 on really busy days at the more popular sites.

My experience there, and in my travel diving since moving from Monterey, is that the frequency with which serious incidents occur at your locations is anomalous.

Don't get me wrong - this does not make it any less serious, but coupled with the report from the other diver after seeing your spot, it does make me wonder if it is not a local issue, as I said before.

I'm not arguing that there is not room for improvement - both in instructor oversight or class content. I just don't see it with the same sense of urgency that you do. I think that is predominantly due to our direct experience, rather than a fundamental difference in how you should approach diving.

Last I heard Laguna (sp?) beach averaged over a fatality per month.

But anyway, I usually try to draw the discussion away from death and injury statistics. As I say unless you have statistics to compare to it doesn't tell you anything.

I try to focus on the observed skill level and relate it to the training standards. For instance...is it any wonder that we so many divers on the bottom when most of the time in training is often spent on the bottom? Will that always result in your death? Certainly not but do we want to wallow in the silt and kick the crap out of every living thing where we dive? Certainly not.

So...when some one sugests that it can be done differently and yield better results...why the arguement especially when weak areas of the standards can be pointed to?

I have written many pages on this site pointing out inconsistancies or illogical aspects of the standards. Few people argue that it's the best way to teach diving. Many, though, argue that it's good enough because the death toll is acceptable.

Some do point out that the goal isn't to train good divers but "good enough" and to get lots of people in the water.

I guess I disagree with what constitutes "good enough" especially since it's so EASY to make a dramatic improvement.

I started out teaching exactly as I was taught to teach. OW, especially dive one was pure hell with divers sinking to the bottom, floating to the surface and siltouts so bad that I couldn't see students. As a new instructor I even got a stern lecture from a long time divemaster who was helping me on how important it was to keep an OW class moving to avoid those problems.

I started playing with different ways of doing things and stealing ideas from other instructors.

Now..on OW dive one every one is diving. We stop often and no one sinks into the silt or shoots to the surface. It's all about as easy as a thing could be. I'm sure there's more than one way to get there too. It doesn't take that much time or cost that much money. A little more up front work in the basics and everything that follows is so much easier and faster that it kind of averages out. The only reason people present for not doing it is that the fatality rate isn't too bad. ok

I really think it's just resistance to change. Diving is still taught mostly on the bottom as was required before the invention of the bc. Dive instruction is stuck in a rut and the agencies are strongly defending their position in that rut.
 
and look what you've turned this thread into!

The question was what SPECIFIC complaints do you have about PADI and how are other agencies better.

"Standards" isn't a specific complaint. That's a general topic.
That's what I was trying to avoid...generalities.

Get specific, tell us who does it better, and how can PADI change to correct the problem.

Obviously PADI want's to make money. That's what organizations do. How exactly does that desire to show a profit hurt divers. Note the words "specific" and "exactly" in this reply.
 
Lawman:
and look what you've turned this thread into!

The question was what SPECIFIC complaints do you have about PADI and how are other agencies better.

"Standards" isn't a specific complaint. That's a general topic.
That's what I was trying to avoid...generalities.

Get specific, tell us who does it better, and how can PADI change to correct the problem.

Obviously PADI want's to make money. That's what organizations do. How exactly does that desire to show a profit hurt divers. Note the words "specific" and "exactly" in this reply.
Earlier in the posts, Mike replied that the following was missing from the standards:

More complete command of bouyancy control
Discuss and develop proper trim
Finning techniques for avoiding silting
Perform most skills while neutral in water, rather than on the bottom

I agreed that these were all valid and worthwhile goals - we differ as to when a diver needs to have achieved a certain skill level with respect to these skills/techniques.

I'm sure there were more, but it was sooooo many posts ago :eyebrow:
 
Walter:
There are none so blind as he who will not see.


Unseen before by Gods or wondering men....And only blind
from sheer supremacy... Keats and DIR
 
Lawman:
and look what you've turned this thread into!

The question was what SPECIFIC complaints do you have about PADI and how are other agencies better.

"Standards" isn't a specific complaint. That's a general topic.
That's what I was trying to avoid...generalities.

Get specific, tell us who does it better, and how can PADI change to correct the problem.

Obviously PADI want's to make money. That's what organizations do. How exactly does that desire to show a profit hurt divers. Note the words "specific" and "exactly" in this reply.

In this thread and many others I've repeatedly pointed out what I see as problems in PADI standards.

I've pointed out problems with the standards of OW, AOW, several specialties and even instructor requirements.

Do you want me to do it again?
If you want page numbers from the instructor manual you'll have to wait until I get home. Do you have an instructor manual to to follow along in?

I'll throw one of my favorite out right now for discussion, again. ok?

PADI standards permit OW dive one to be conducted immediately after confined water 1 but...buoyancy control isn't introduced until confined water dive 3.

what's wrong with it? The PADI OW dive 1 standards state that students are to practice buoyancy control on the dive. BTW, except for the requirement to get neutral at some point on OW dive 4 and a fim pivot on dive 3 it's about the only reference in the OW performance requirements to buoyancy control. It's illogical to say the least. They've done it so that divers can recieve OW class credit for a resort course. To require 4 actual dives of experience prior to certification isn't too much ya think. I don't consider being led around on a leash before being taught to use a bs and hang with a buddy as creditable experience.

Who does it better? IANTD. IANTD standards require all confined water to be completed prior to any OW which is an OPTION in a padi course but not a requirement. It used to be though.
 
Another one...

PADI OW standards do not require basic skills such as buoyancy control to be evaluated on each dive. Per the standards the student can wallow on the bottom most of the time and meet the requirements of the class.

As I pointed out earlier, PADI allows some of the dives to be conducted prior to these skills even being introduces so even the stucents chance to gain experience applying the skills in OW is reduced.

Who does it better? IANTD. A skill evaluation sheet must be filled out for each dive which includes an evaluation for basic skills like buoyancy control, buddy skills, finning technique...ect. the exact form can be viewed on the IANTD web site in the standards and procedures.

Which brings up another point which is that IANTD standards a available to any one on their web site FREE. A student taking a class can know what's required of an instructor and the student ahead of time. Only PADI instructors and DM's have access to PADI standards and they have to buy them. A PADI student can be given half a class and they have NO way of knowing what the actual performance requirements are.
 
better buouyancy skills and taught earlier.

Anything more?
 

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