Thank heavens for PADI

[MikeFerrara]

The PADI model which has, in large part the industry model serves the wants of a large portion of the market. Most people want to see the fishies as quick and easily as they can and I really don't care except when I read accident reports that look more like murder to me.

The sad part though is the divers who would like to really learn how to dive and would like real training if they knew where to look. They'll spend a fortune on classes and gear untill they finally run into some one or something and it all clicks. Then they'll e-bay all the gear they baught and have to unlearn or relearn most of what they were taught.

It's not always an easy process.

 

[Lawman]

The PADI model which has, in large part the industry model serves the wants of a large portion of the market. Most people want to see the fishies as quick and easily as they can and I really don't care except when I read accident reports that look more like murder to me.

The sad part though is the divers who would like to really learn how to dive and would like real training if they knew where to look. They'll spend a fortune on classes and gear untill they finally run into some one or something and it all clicks. Then they'll e-bay all the gear they baught and have to unlearn or relearn most of what they were taught.

It's not always an easy process.

What agency provides the training for "divers who would really learn how to dive?" Is there something wrong with wanting to "see the fishes" quickly? I soloed in an airplane with 5 hours of instruction. I wasn't the best, but I could take off and land. I got better with instruction. What is different with SCUBA? How much training should someone have before being allowed to "see the fishes." Which accident reports have you read in the last year that have a death or serious injury directly attributable to a PADI training method? How many deaths are attributable to any training method ie: not heart attacks or similar physical injury?

I'm trying to get specific, material, flaws in PADI training that other agencies do better."Material" means major, not trivial.

 

[Lawman]

In the open water class you can miss every question about dive planning on the final exam and pass. The third unit is very dense with a only single page of first aid and rescue info, while the fifth unit is very sparse with lots of marketing info, and even four marketing questions on the knowledge review.

Chris

Assuming someone was so dense that they couldn't answer even one question on dive planning...why is that so important to a beginning SCUBA diver? Isn't that what Divemasters do?
It's valuable to know, but is it necessary for beginners?
First Aid is valuable, however again, isn't that the relm of the Divemasters? They are required to have taken First Aid and shouldn't a newbie defer to them before trying to treat an injured diver? Also, diving First Aid is pretty simple. It's basic Boy Scout First Aid combined with DCS and embolism recognition. It's not fractures, penetrating wounds and head trauma. What agency requires better training and how is it different?

 

[MikeFerrara]

What agency provides the training for "divers who would really learn how to dive?" Is there something wrong with wanting to "see the fishes" quickly? I soloed in an airplane with 5 hours of instruction. I wasn't the best, but I could take off and land. I got better with instruction. What is different with SCUBA? How much training should someone have before being allowed to "see the fishes." Which accident reports have you read in the last year that have a death or serious injury directly attributable to a PADI training method? How many deaths are attributable to any training method ie: not heart attacks or similar physical injury?

I'm trying to get specific, material, flaws in PADI training that other agencies do better."Material" means major, not trivial.

Were your lanings bad when you did your first solo?

Almost all the accident report point to poor skills. That's not unique to PADI and I never said it was.

How much training should some one have before seeing the fishies? Enough to be proficient at the basic skills needed to control a dive.

You want something from the PADI standards? ok. Good buoyancy control isn't a requirement of the OW dives. The student must get neutral sometime during dive 4 and there's no time requirement at that. LOL

In CW the students must do a 30 ft neutral swim in mod 3 and hover for one minute in dive 4. Aside from that 1 minute and 10 seconds they can sit on the bottom the rest of the time. So...there isn't even a requirement that they practice "diving" since they can crawl through the whole class.

Gas management isn't taught at all.

Comparing PADI standards to IANTD...IANTD requires buoyancy, buddy skills and a bunch of other stuff to be rated on each and every dive. If the student doesn't score high enough they must do more dives. The instructor must then maintain record of that scoring. Per standards the student must dive. Crawling doesn't count. IANTD isn't perfect either but at least the standards say that the student has to demonstrate good technique during training dives.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Assuming someone was so dense that they couldn't answer even one question on dive planning...why is that so important to a beginning SCUBA diver? Isn't that what Divemasters do?
It's valuable to know, but is it necessary for beginners?

What make you so sure that the diver is going to be diving with a divemaster?

This is the problem. The text says that the diver will be qualified to independantly plan and conduct OW dives. They're given a card that enables them to rent equipment and buy breathing gas. The card doesn't stipulate that they must dive with a divemaster who can plan their dive for them. It should though!

Yet, the training almost assumes that the diver going to be diving at a resort under supervission. True that's what lots of divers do and it's a good thing because they wouldn't do so well if they were out on their own like their card says they're qualified to do.

 

[rockie_diver]

As said earlier, the PADI learning materials are top notch as was my training. The problem I have is that, in my humble opinon, is PADI's pride comes off as very arrogant. Throw in the excessive self promotion and they just turn me off.

While Dizzy Dean said; "It aint bragging if its true", PADI's accomplishments would go a lot further promoting diving and PADI rather than the hollow pride and shameless self promotion that PADI's critics site as the reason of being turned off.

My friend's son is a F16 pilot and the youngest top gun flight instructor in the history of the air force. He said; "the problem of thinking you are the best is that if you say it enough, you start to believe it. It hinders your personal improvement. You can always get better."

So if PADI concentrated on doing it's best to be the best, they wouldn't have to beat their chest and brag. We the diving public would be doing it for them.

Thanks
Jack

 

[Scubakevdm]

So if PADI concentrated on doing it's best to be the best, they wouldn't have to beat their chest and brag. We the diving public would be doing it for them.

Thanks
Jack

Hmm... it doesn't seem like PADI folks are the ones beating their chests on this board. :54: But you're right, it certainly is a turn off.
Anyway, I don't think PADI is trying to be the best, they're just trying to provide diving to the masses, safely. Some people just don't want the masses diving.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Assuming someone was so dense that they couldn't answer even one question on dive planning...why is that so important to a beginning SCUBA diver? Isn't that what Divemasters do?

Where I dive most new divers do not go out with divemasters. In fact, it's very rare ... even on charters.

Most of the time, the newly certified diver will hook up with a buddy ... often someone they went through class with ... rent some gear, and head off to one of the local dive sites.

It's valuable to know, but is it necessary for beginners?

It is if those beginners are going to head off to the local dive park and get in the water unsupervised ... which happens every day around here.

First Aid is valuable, however again, isn't that the relm of the Divemasters? They are required to have taken First Aid and shouldn't a newbie defer to them before trying to treat an injured diver? Also, diving First Aid is pretty simple. It's basic Boy Scout First Aid combined with DCS and embolism recognition. It's not fractures, penetrating wounds and head trauma. What agency requires better training and how is it different?

Again, it's not exclusively the realm of divemasters ... especially in those parts of the world where a certified diver is expected to be responsible for their own safety.

I cannot vouch for the quality of PADI's first aid training ... I took mine through the YMCA. However, in the NAUI (and now SSI) classes that I DM for, we do tell our students that anyone who wants to do more than vacation dive (i.e. follow the DM around) should take a Rescue class to learn the very basic stuff you're talking about. Until they take that class, to my concern, their education is lacking in terms of knowing enough to dive safely without supervision.

I don't see this as a PADI issue so much as an industry issue. PADI only gets the abuse because they're the most visible symbol of the shortcomings rampant in our diver education system.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MikeFerrara]

Anyway, I don't think PADI is trying to be the best, they're just trying to provide diving to the masses, safely. Some people just don't want the masses diving.

I'm all for the masses diving. If only that was what they were doing.

Anyway, I don't think PADI is trying to be the best

I can believe that.

 

[Scubakevdm]

So, probably, if PADI isn't doing a very good job, they won't make it for very long, as a company I mean. Everyone did have the right to choose their cert agency right? So, if PADI is substandard, and neglegent, and killing people or whatever, business is probably not going to be too good for them. They will just be a small little insignificant agency that no one has heard of. The market makes that determination. If, on the other hand they give the market what it wants safely, PADI will grow into a huge multinational agency recognized even by non-divers. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Could somebady please PM me if PADI ever gets big?