Thank heavens for PADI

[Lawman]

Were your lanings bad when you did your first solo?

Almost all the accident report point to poor skills. That's not unique to PADI and I never said it was.

How much training should some one have before seeing the fishies? Enough to be proficient at the basic skills needed to control a dive.

You want something from the PADI standards? ok. Good buoyancy control isn't a requirement of the OW dives. The student must get neutral sometime during dive 4 and there's no time requirement at that. LOL

In CW the students must do a 30 ft neutral swim in mod 3 and hover for one minute in dive 4. Aside from that 1 minute and 10 seconds they can sit on the bottom the rest of the time. So...there isn't even a requirement that they practice "diving" since they can crawl through the whole class.

Gas management isn't taught at all.

Comparing PADI standards to IANTD...IANTD requires buoyancy, buddy skills and a bunch of other stuff to be rated on each and every dive. If the student doesn't score high enough they must do more dives. The instructor must then maintain record of that scoring. Per standards the student must dive. Crawling doesn't count. IANTD isn't perfect either but at least the standards say that the student has to demonstrate good technique during training dives.

New divers on their first OW dives arn't required to have "good buoyancy control." And, new divers arn't taught "gas management."

Another agency requires them to continue diving until they show "good buoyancy control."

Legitimate and the first specific complaints/differences.
Could individual instructors require their students to demonstrate good buoyancy control? Wouldn't any instructor work on that with every student? Is this really a PADI failure?

The only "gas management" I've ever gotten from either PADI or SSI is the rule of thirds and have 500 lbs getting on the boat. What more should new divers be taught? And who's teaching it?

As for hovering, it seems to me that you can either hover or you can't. It doesn't matter how long you demonstrate the skill. Again, if someone is crawling along the bottom this is something the instructor would regulate. Not the training agency.

 

[gj62]

Another agency requires them to continue diving until they show "good buoyancy control."

Legitimate and the first specific complaints/differences.

Could individual instructors require their students to demonstrate good buoyancy control? Wouldn't any instructor work on that with every student? Is this really a PADI failure?

Realize that IANTD grew out of a decidedly technical bent towards diving, which they retain to this day. They've been around for quite some time, and their growth rate is not substantial (at least from what I've seen). This does not lessen their value, but I think that even they would agree they are not intent on serving the broad recreational market. Different requirements for different types of diving (I disagree with Mike F that rec divers aren't "diving").

However, I do think that there would be nothing but a positive impact were PADI to institute more instructor time towards bouyancy management. I disagree that the skill must be "perfected" during the certification process.

 

[MikeFerrara]

New divers on their first OW dives arn't required to have "good buoyancy control." And, new divers arn't taught "gas management."

Another agency requires them to continue diving until they show "good buoyancy control."

Legitimate and the first specific complaints/differences.
Could individual instructors require their students to demonstrate good buoyancy control? Wouldn't any instructor work on that with every student? Is this really a PADI failure?

Certainly an individual instructor can require that the student demonstrate proficient buoyancy control during dives but they aren't required to and many don't.

The only "gas management" I've ever gotten from either PADI or SSI is the rule of thirds and have 500 lbs getting on the boat. What more should new divers be taught? And who's teaching it?

PADI does not introduce the rule of thirds in OW or AOW and it isn't it usually isn't appropriate for recreational OW dives anyway.

Having 500 psi back on the boat isn't gas managemnent at all because it dosn't indicate turn or ascent VOLUME. Gas management is the process of planning to have enough gas to get back or up (as conditions require) in a worst case situation where both divers are breathing off the same supply.

As for hovering, it seems to me that you can either hover or you can't. It doesn't matter how long you demonstrate the skill. Again, if someone is crawling along the bottom this is something the instructor would regulate. Not the training agency.

Why do you assume that the instructor will regulate it if it's within standards not to? Many of the cert mills do what they must and no more. The judgement of the instructor will always come into play but in this case their not even required to make much of a judgement.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Realize that IANTD grew out of a decidedly technical bent towards diving, which they retain to this day. They've been around for quite some time, and their growth rate is not substantial (at least from what I've seen). This does not lessen their value, but I think that even they would agree they are not intent on serving the broad recreational market. Different requirements for different types of diving (I disagree with Mike F that rec divers aren't "diving").

Understand that I'm in no way holding up IANTD as a model of perfection. I just used their skill evaluation as an example of one agency requireing skill proficiency on every dive.

Aside from that I don't believe that a hard core tech diver has any greater a need for good basic skills when doing a 50 ft recreational dive than any other recreational diver. the time to lay a foundation of good basic technique (ie trim, buoyancy control, finning technique...ect) is when one first starts diving. I've found little value in trying to teach an AOW class and do things like complex navigation if a student can't parallel the bottom stop, turn, ect without making a mess od things and it sure doesn't make any sense to me to take a student on a deep dive when they can't do a good job of diving shallow. Reference the AOW student last year at Gilboa who blew up from the deep dive and hit the surface no breathing, the AOW student who die in an AOW clas in the St. Lawrence and out own Rachel's rapid ascent from her AOW deep dive with her instructor and buddy starting with a simple free flow. That's just a few examples of incedents that have showed up on this forum and there's many more.[/QUOTE]

However, I do think that there would be nothing but a positive impact were PADI to institute more instructor time towards bouyancy management. I disagree that the skill must be "perfected" during the certification process.[/QUOTE]

Whyen it comes to an entry level class I'm certainly not suggesting that perfection should be expected. However the student won't even improve much with practice if they aren't given a solid foundation to build on. Without even presenting the mechanics of balance and trim what do they even have to practice? What are their chances of improving? In my experience, they don't get much better unless they some how find out this stuff on their own.

 

[gj62]

...I don't believe that a hard core tech diver has any greater a need for good basic skills when doing a 50 ft recreational dive than any other recreational diver.

Agreed - the tech diver needs them during more technical dives...

the time to lay a foundation of good basic technique (ie trim, buoyancy control, finning technique...ect) is when one first starts diving.

Agreed - if the diver is interested in going beyond casual recreational diving.

Reference the AOW student last year at Gilboa who blew up from the deep dive and hit the surface no breathing, the AOW student who die in an AOW clas in the St. Lawrence and out own Rachel's rapid ascent from her AOW deep dive with her instructor and buddy starting with a simple free flow. That's just a few examples of incedents that have showed up on this forum and there's many more.

I don't know these incidents specifically, but I don't think finning technique or silting caused them...

Whyen it comes to an entry level class I'm certainly not suggesting that perfection should be expected.

We agree!

However the student won't even improve much with practice if they aren't given a solid foundation to build on. Without even presenting the mechanics of balance and trim what do they even have to practice? What are their chances of improving? In my experience, they don't get much better unless they some how find out this stuff on their own.

Um, maybe. I know that most of the buddies I've had either (a) work it out on their own, or (b) learn from other divers. They may not ever perfect these skills to advance beyond casual rec diving - but who cares if that's their target?

 

[Lawman]

amongst people that enjoy talking about their hobby/interest/
occupation. I think that the responses have been excellent and well thought out.
I had noticed that PADI received quite a lot of criticism that was in the nature of "my school is better than your school." I thought it would be a good opportunity for critics to say just exactly what they didn't like about PADI and how other organizations are better. The criticism has been pretty mild and seems to be less about PADI as about the failings of individual PADI instructors. Frankly, I was suprised there weren't more criticisms. It never hurts to point out where any training system can be improved.
We've managed a ScubaBoard first: We talked about PADI and training without harsh words and a fight. We must be growing up. :11:

 

[MikeFerrara]

Agreed - the tech diver needs them during more technical dives...

Except that poor skills cause accidents according to DAN and common sense.

Agreed - if the diver is interested in going beyond casual recreational diving.

How does the instructor or the student for that matter know what their long term goal is during an entry level class.

They should be prepared for the next step and they're not. Per standards a divers 5th lifetime dive could be a 100 ft dive as part of their AOW class while the majority of their 1st 4 dives were spent kneeling on a training platform. Makes sense huh?

While I'm sort of on the subject of deep dives, did you know that you can become an instructor with only one dive below 60 ft (the one you did for your own AOW and you can then teach AOW deep dives to 100 ft? That means that a student doing their 5th lifetime dive and an instructor who only has dive to 60 ft can see 100 ft for the first time together. Sounds like a good idea to me...not.

In the PADI educational progression the ONLY class (other than PPB which is a specialty that most don't take and no one is required to take) that claims to teach buoyancy control and related skills. It's never required to be revisited by the standards. Therefore this is the time to teach it since it's the only chance you get.

I don't know these incidents specifically, but I don't think finning technique or silting caused them...

Aside from hosing up the environment silting certainly contribute to buddy seperation BIG TIME...normally considered a problem. I have a good deal of video of resort dives. In all cases they are beating the crap out of the coral also. Any technique that causes severe silting won't be kind to coral either. Divers who can't control their position in the water will have trouble staying with a buddy even without a siltout. Combine the silt (lack of reference) and poor control and seperations become common especially on ascents and descent when it's most critical to be aware of each other's position and condition.

then they come here to ask about pony bottles. LOL

 

[MikeFerrara]

amongst people that enjoy talking about their hobby/interest/
occupation. I think that the responses have been excellent and well thought out.
I had noticed that PADI received quite a lot of criticism that was in the nature of "my school is better than your school." I thought it would be a good opportunity for critics to say just exactly what they didn't like about PADI and how other organizations are better. The criticism has been pretty mild and seems to be less about PADI as about the failings of individual PADI instructors. Frankly, I was suprised there weren't more criticisms. It never hurts to point out where any training system can be improved.
We've managed a ScubaBoard first: We talked about PADI and training without harsh words and a fight. We must be growing up. :11:

I used to think of it as a failure of individual instructors until I discussed it with PADI and gained more experience with their system. PADI pointed out that while in many cases it's an example of poor teaching that doesn't make it a standards violation.

An instructor is obligated to follow standards. They are not obligated to exceed them.

A PADI OW class can be taught following the standards to the letter very fast, very cheap and certify a very poor diver and that's all that PADI requires or even asks for. They set the minimum and they have.

My complaints are not just aimed at PADI because most agencies in one way or another are trying to compete with them and follow their lead.

The RSTC is a joke and is a perfect example of putting the fox in charge of the hen house.

 

[gj62]

Except that poor skills cause accidents according to DAN and common sense.

True for most things, like driving - a much more dangerous activity which we all pretty much participate in without requiring much training or oversight...

How does the instructor or the student for that matter know what their long term goal is during an entry level class.

I don't find that a big leap. I knew when I started that I was pretty much a rec diver at heart, just as I knew I'd never want to progress further than my single-engine IFR for flying. We aren't talking about habits that will likely be so ingrained as to present a significant barrier to relearn.

While I'm sort of on the subject of deep dives, did you know that you can become an instructor with only one dive below 60 ft (the one you did for your own AOW and you can then teach AOW deep dives to 100 ft?

Yes - but are you saying that someone can't teach what they don't do? If so, I think most professional educators would tell you that it's not a requirement, or even a good benchmark, to use what you can do to evaluate how well you can teach. To my knowledge, there are no more physical skills that come into play at 60' than at 70', etc.

 

[MikeFerrara]

True for most things, like driving - a much more dangerous activity which we all pretty much participate in without requiring much training or oversight...

If I was a driving instructor I'd have plenty to say about that too. LOL

I don't find that a big leap. I knew when I started that I was pretty much a rec diver at heart, just as I knew I'd never want to progress further than my single-engine IFR for flying.

I disagree. When I started diving I didn't know what was available. I spent tons of money taking classes that were pretty much a waste of time and money that I never would have taken if I knew what else was out there. They typical LDS presents only selected bits of information assuming they even know.

We aren't talking about habits that will likely be so ingrained as to present a significant barrier to relearn.

Here I really disagree. As an instructor who has students come to me for more advanced classes who can't even do the basics I can tell you that lots of time and effort goes into reteaching on my part and relearning on the part of he student.

Yes - but are you saying that someone can't teach what they don't do? If so, I think most professional educators would tell you that it's not a requirement, or even a good benchmark, to use what you can do to evaluate how well you can teach. To my knowledge, there are no more physical skills that come into play at 60' than at 70', etc.

Excet that when you are teaching diving you are responsible for avoiding and responding to problems at depth. An instructor who isn't a deep diver may not be able to do that on a deep dive. Being a good diver doesn't make you a good teacher but being a poor diver can make you a dangerous teacher.

the student accident at Gilboa that I mentioned in an earlier post happened when the student lost a fin on a planned 80 ft dive in 120 ft of water (no bottom under them). The student lost a fin and sank deeper, paniced and bolted. Better skills on the part of the student, instructor or both could have easily controled the situation.

On Rachel's (buiskit7) deep dive she experienced a free flow. In the process of putting her on some ones alternate her, her buddy and the instructor shot to the surface at like 160 ft per minute according to her computer. They weren't trying to ascend at all BTW and didn't know they were until almost at the surface. Manageing a free flow should not send a student to the surface and certainly is a common problem for an instructor to have to assist with in cold water on a deep dive.

The ability to manage little inconveniences like a lost fin or a free flowing reg while controling depth and position is the minimum skill level required to deep dive (or any dive) safely.

It's true that most often nothing goes wrong and the diver won't be called on to do anything. However divers with poor skills don't do very well in the event that something does go wrong and sometimes they even cause it to go wrong.