teaching in standards can still be a "bad" instructor - split thread

[JeffG]

Ok, I'm going to hijack this thread a bit, since it looks like some of you might be instructors or know quite a few of them. When you are learning to be a SCUBA instructor do they teach any pedagogy? Do they (the certification agency you happen to know about) give you methods to help you teach those who struggle and whatnot? After going to school for education I still flew by the seat of my pants the first year in the classroom! Also how much to the agencies give you that you have to work within and how much freedom do you have?

You should maybe start an new thread.."Do Scuba Schools teach you to teach?"

 

[daniel f aleman]

All in context I guess. I couldn't find where this thread originated, thats kinda why I was asking if this was a NAUI thing...or a non-agency specific thing.

Al said that there are, "bad NAUI instructors". And he meant it in the way that there are bad instructors working within the NAUI standards. (This was stated to support earlier posts that implied that "bad" instructors are found in all agencies). I asked what he meant by "bad".

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

Ok, I'm going to hijack this thread a bit, since it looks like some of you might be instructors or know quite a few of them. When you are learning to be a SCUBA instructor do they teach any pedagogy? Do they (the certification agency you happen to know about) give you methods to help you teach those who struggle and whatnot? After going to school for education I still flew by the seat of my pants the first year in the classroom! Also how much to the agencies give you that you have to work within and how much freedom do you have?

I primarily teach SSI. There are basic suggestions and theories as to how people learn and such but I believe that you can't beat experience. There are plenty of graduates from those instructor factories and while some of them are fine I'm sure there are others I wouldn't trust doing an update.

I do have the freedom to expand the course within SSI so I'm not forced to do a cookie cutter approach.

For most who struggle nothing really beats time. Some just need more time to get comfortable. The skills are easy.

 

[jagfish]

I think this thread explores a valid question.

I think "yes" a teacher of anything could follow a recipe of standards and not be a talented teacher. In my experience, challenged students will suffer more than gifted ones in such a scenario.

At the university level here in Japan, we say these students learn in spite of poor instruction.

 

[daniel f aleman]

Al,

By the way, my usual dive buddy is a 5000 Platimum Pro Instructor and a IANTD low-digit Instructor Trainer. I have found that most instructors are great in the classroom and in the water, some have plenty "bad" in their personal lives, though...

 

[MikeFerrara]

Not only can an instructor adhere to standards and not be a "talented instructor" but it is demonstratably possible to become an instructor without ever having to demonstrate that you are even a good diver.

I haven't seen many NAUI instructors at work but I've seen PADI instructors who comply with standards to the letter but are, IMO, dangerous. Of course, I don't necessarily believe that the standards are "good". Most agencies standards have the same loopholes that demonstrate the general cluelessness of the agency when it comes to actually teaching diving.

In fact, I've posted at least dozens, and probably hundreds, of pages on this board detailing all the things in PADI standards that defy anything that I can think of as logic. No one has ever had much to say in defense of those standards aside from pointing out that a "good" instructor can do a "good" job in spite of poor standards or argueing that we aren't tripping over dead bodies. Well I dived for years without any formal training without incident. The relative lack of death is not proof that the training is good as I demonstrated by diving safely with no training at all. I use PADI standards here because I'm familiar with them but anything modeled after or around RSTC requirements is junk as far as I'm concerned.

IMO, NO instructor is going to be "good" until they come to terms with the weaknesses of the standards, stop assuming that the standards are "good" and learn to really teach diving. I've had many instructors and have seen many more and I am of the opinion that VERY few instructors ever get there. The trouble isn't finding a "bad" one. The trouble is finding a "good" one. I'd go even further and point out the the very worst PADI instructors that I know of are course directors and instructors who certify large numbers of students. They learn to use every loop hole in the standards to make teaching more streamline and economical but turn out the worst divers...all well within what standards permit of course.

Still, if you define "good" as compliance to standards then I'd say that most instructors are good. I just think the standards are beyond bad and into the "that sucks" part of the scale. LOL and agencies only toss out instructors who fail to follow standards. They don't toss them out for turning out lousy divers.

 

[Sideband]

Al said that there are, "bad NAUI instructors". And he meant it in the way that there are bad instructors working within the NAUI standards. (This was stated to support earlier posts that implied that "bad" instructors are found in all agencies). I asked what he meant by "bad".

I can name 2 but since I am affiliated with the shop I will keep their identities between myself and the shop owner. I have talked to the owner about both and neither have been given classes since the middle of last summer. One instructor is a very good diver and covers every part of the standards. He has NO people skills though and I have personally seen him bring 5 different students to tears in the last 2 years. One young lady was having trouble not breathing through her nose and while I was patiently working with her on snorkel (and making progress) he came over and flatly said, "This is something you need to learn and you need to learn it now", then he went back to the class. She dropped out but was called by another instructor (one which I highly respect) and asked to come back to one of the classes he was giving. She decided to try and after the class she said she couldn't believe how much fun she had. The first class was like military training and the second was learning to dive in a friendly, fun environment.

There is an example of a bad instructor that works within the agency standards. The name wouldn't mean anything to you if I gave it anyway.

Joe

 

[Darnold9999]

Knowledge of the material and an ability to apply it, does not necessarily make one a good instructor. In fact one has nothing at all to do with the other. Spend some time at a University and this will become obvious. At best I was a mediocre teacher, but pretty good at the other stuff, and have met very good teachers that didn't know their *** from a hole in the ground when it came time to apply the knowledge.

Diving is no different - following standards does not make you a "good" teacher. The market may however weed out the "bad" ones pretty quickly - something academia does not do.

 

[Hawaii Scuba Divers]

This is SO STUPID is there any better use of this board than this.....YES I Know BAD instructors in all the agencies everyone has BAD APPLES...GET OVER IT...And try to be the best you can...

 

[daniel f aleman]

Well I dived for years without any formal training without incident. The relative lack of death is not proof that the training is good as I demonstrated by diving safely with no training at all.

IMO, NO instructor is going to be "good" until they come to terms with the weaknesses of the standards, stop assuming that the standards are "good" and learn to really teach diving.

Still, if you define "good" as compliance to standards then I'd say that most instructors are good. I just think the standards are beyond bad and into the "that sucks" part of the scale. LOL and agencies only toss out instructors who fail to follow standards. They don't toss them out for turning out lousy divers.

Mike,

The whole of point OW is to get people into diving, safely. That's it. I started diving with borrowed equipment when I was 13 in 1970 and I dived a thousand times before I was PADI certified in 1982 (and cave certified that same year, NACD) - and only then beacuse I needed the card to get gas at shops. The equipment back then: no BC, no octo, j-valves, bad-fitting neoprene - damn scary, when I think of what I did then. I never heard of a safety-stop, and knew NOTHING about basic deco theory. The advent of all the new equipment has made diving so e-a-s-y, even the disabled can dive. "Standards" have reflected this advancement... all-but fool-proof. Current diving standards work well enough... the least of which is shown in the fact that we can get insurance for it all.