High Springs Intro Training Questions

[Adaptive Joe]

Hey all,

I’ve read through decades worth of threads here asking “what agency is best”, “what instructors are best”, and I understand the answers aren’t that clear cut.

But I’m going to ask some questions again for a more general introduction to cave diving in Florida, and with a selfish desire to get your tailored instructor recommendations.

I’ve been diving ~10 years, through the PADI/SSI professional/recreational pipeline (lotta C-cards, lotta focus on gear sales, for not a lot of training), contracted with a working dive team (maritime archaeology—ton of diving, ton of experience, many bad habits), and lately spending a lot of low-stakes time solo diving to have free-form fun and work on fundamentals.

I’ve dreamt of exploring caves for years, and I’m in a position now (time, money and proximity to High Springs), to get started.

I’ve spoken with a handful of instructors over the last five years, to get a better feel for the initial glide path, but I still have some observations and questions to work through.

1. The various agencies have different standards, but ultimately it’s the instructor*, not the agency, that teaches you. GUE produces a lot of high-budget media and marketing, has a good network, good training documents, and I see a lot about how they produce good divers too (albeit, similarly high budget). For some reason, my kool-aid detectors go off re GUE, though this could just be my bitter grapes about the generally inflated cost of their training and the fundamentals prerequisite. Would you say that GUE training (ie a GUE instructor) provides a legitimately better cave/tech diving practice? Or is there some amount of kool-aid in that cup?
2. Are there any external benefits of diving with a given agency? Such as professional/expeditionary opportunities?
3. I’ve interviewed instructors, and while this is often the top comment, I’ve also trained with someone I thought was legit after an interview, and then had mediocre experiences. With that said, who have you* completed training with for entry level tech/cave in the High Springs area that really knocked your socks off?
4. The general attitude I’ve seen in the cave community is that diving alone is stupid. I get it, and I understand the risk aversion, along with the safety considerations for someone who’d have to try and make a recovery if a fatal error were made. Is there any* level of risk mitigation that could be employed to make solo cave diving palatable, or is the answer “yes, a buddy”?

To close this out, the expenses involved here are enormous. I’m sorry to ask some redundant questions, but I wanted to ask them myself to have the best chance of getting relevant information in order to make these decisions re intro cave training. I’d appreciate any and all insight on one or more of the questions above or something that I’ve not considered that I should. There are always some things I don’t know that I don’t know.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Joe

 

[Tracy]

You asked for opinions, I'll give you mine.
Take fundies. If you are near cave country, it is easy to get into a class and I don't remember it being an expensive course.
Go into it with an open mind and see what you think.
After that, you should be able to make a better informed decision about continuing with that agency or moving to a different one.
There isn't a negative, you will acquire solid skills that will help you with whatever path and training agency you choose.

 

[Adaptive Joe]

You asked for opinions, I'll give you mine.
Take fundies. If you are near cave country, it is easy to get into a class and I don't remember it being an expensive course.
Go into it with an open mind and see what you think.
After that, you should be able to make a better informed decision about continuing with that agency or moving to a different one.
There isn't a negative, you will acquire solid skills that will help you with whatever path and training agency you choose.

Thanks, Tracy!

This echoes some of my thoughts on where to start. Training on fundamentals is always useful, but I get hung up on the economics. I’ve seen costs range from $800-$1200 for the fundamentals course (*shrug* I get it), but the less palatable additional expense is the need to purchase a BCD that complies with GUE’s configuration requirements ($500-$1000+). Similarly, to progress into cave with GUE I’d need a doubles-compatible BCD (I have a side mount BC (no reason other than a good deal), but from what I understand that’s a no-go for beginners). These additional economic complexities/demands make me wonder if the rigid guidelines, despite the potential for great training/development, are worth it when there are more flexible, but equally rigorous curriculums out there (I’m only assuming this is the case—flexibility sure, but if not equally rigorous, then it’s a moot point).

I guess some additional questions would be: why the strict configuration guidelines for a single-tank set-up? Why no entry-level sidemount diving?

With my lack of experience, I’m unable to judge if those uniformity requirements make sense, or what the purpose is for them.

For context, in the infantry I had a 1SG who made everyone adjust their FLC to a standardized configuration. This made sense for things like medical kits, but not for magazine and grenade pouches. We had people trying to draw across their body because of someone’s quest for aesthetic uniformity.

SCUBA kit is even less uniform in make than government issued equipment, so the strict configuration guidelines (ie very specific d-ring placement) gives me 1SG Micromanagement vibes. But that’s what I’m looking to quell.

What I’ve read so far points to: - “you’ll learn to dive better if you start with doubles”, and “sidemount adds complexity”, along with “you need doubles to perform certain procedures in accordance with GUE standards”. The last point there makes sense in that the curriculum is written to standardize practice, but the others aren’t as compelling (in my ignorance anyway).

It would be helpful to receive some insight re those configuration requirements, or if there’s flexibility in allowable configurations that I’m not tracking.

 

[Wibble]

High Springs and cave training…. Mel Clark. She’s an excellent instructor who is very pragmatic and teaches you to think for yourself. Highly recommend.

Cave diving kit has to be reliable but this doesn’t necessarily mean high prices; the backplate and harness are cheap, good quality wings (e.g. Halcyon Evolve) are available second hand. Lighting is cheaper these days. Decent drysuits are the big ticket items.

Prior to taking your caving course, you MUST have sorted core skills: buoyancy, trim and finning must be excellent. That’s where Fundies comes in. Fundies will make you a better diver regardless if you continue any further down the DIR route.

 

[steinbil]

For some reason, my kool-aid detectors go off re GUE, though this could just be my bitter grapes about the generally inflated cost of their training and the fundamentals prerequisite.

Just wanted to remind you that (A) GUE is a non profit and (B) higher costs mean more money to instructor and/or longer course. With higher pay for instructors and higher demands, it's not unreasonable to expect a generally higher quality of instruction. Many would argue that the value of the class is higher than a lot of cheaper classes. Of course, I expect the good non-GUE instructors to charge similar rates. Budget cave training is not something I personally would do.

I’ve seen costs range from $800-$1200 for the fundamentals course (*shrug* I get it), but the less palatable additional expense is the need to purchase a BCD that complies with GUE’s configuration requirements ($500-$1000+)

Get used gear or borrow for the class before you commit. You should be able to get a backplate and a wing for cheap, it really is very simple gear.

Anyways, I think Tracy is right. Try Fundamentals. You'll quickly find out if GUE is something you want to pursue, and in any case you'll gain valuable skills. I haven't heard of many divers regretting taking Fundies, but I've heard of many that have had a much better experience than they expected.

 

[Adaptive Joe]

High Springs and cave training…. Mel Clark. She’s an excellent instructor who is very pragmatic and teaches you to think for yourself. Highly recommend.

Great recommendation! Thanks!

Just wanted to remind you that (A) GUE is a non profit and (B) higher costs mean more money to instructor and/or longer course. With higher pay for instructors and higher demands, it's not unreasonable to expect a generally higher quality of instruction. Many would argue that the value of the class is higher than a lot of cheaper classes. Of course, I expect the good non-GUE instructors to charge similar rates. Budget cave training is not something I personally would do.


Get used gear or borrow for the class before you commit. You should be able to get a backplate and a wing for cheap, it really is very simple gear.

Thanks steinbil, this is useful. I’ve seen people break down the cost/training-hour and express that they’d walked away from the course thinking they should have paid more*. That’s definitely great testimony. I do expect the costs to reach ~$4000, but what I’m trying to avoid is breaking that budget with too many ancillary requirements that could be otherwise avoided without compromising quality of training. I know things will pop up, but too many of those little things can bar entry to the sport in general.

How ‘bout: “will work for dive training”?

 

[Tracy]

Thanks, Tracy!

This echoes some of my thoughts on where to start. Training on fundamentals is always useful, but I get hung up on the economics. I’ve seen costs range from $800-$1200 for the fundamentals course

It is a 3-4 day course. $300 per day is average for quality instruction. $350-400 for a bigger name. (bigger names do not always bring better instruction, I have often seen the opposite)

need to purchase a BCD that complies with GUE’s configuration requirements ($500-$1000+). Similarly, to progress into cave with GUE I’d need a doubles-compatible BCD

These can be rented of most likely borrowed for your course. If you decide you want to proceed down the GUE route, buying a plate and harness are not a monumental expense. If you decide you don't want to continue on that route, use what you already own.

I guess some additional questions would be: why the strict configuration guidelines for a single-tank set-up?

Why would you do it in a single tank setup if you are doing it with cave training plans in the future?

Why no entry-level sidemount diving?

Before open water sidemount became a fad, it was used as a tool to explore places that weren't accessible in backmount. GUE still believes this and it is taught as an advanced cave course.
You don't take advanced courses before you have basic skills.

With my lack of experience, I’m unable to judge if those uniformity requirements make sense, or what the purpose is for them.

They make sense within the GUE standards and curriculum. It isn't for everybody, but there is a reason for the kit they use. Sometimes the reason is rooted in antiquity, but it is something they have reason for.

What I’ve read so far points to: - “you’ll learn to dive better if you start with doubles”, and “sidemount adds complexity”, along with “you need doubles to perform certain procedures in accordance with GUE standards”. The last point there makes sense in that the curriculum is written to standardize practice, but the others aren’t as compelling (in my ignorance anyway).

I don't think you will dive better if you start with doubles, but you will definitely dive better if you start with good foundational training. GUE happens to offer that and they don't do it in sidemount.
That isn't to say you can't find a very good instructor to teach a similar program in sidemount. They do exist, but 90% that claim they do, can't.

It would be helpful to receive some insight re those configuration requirements, or if there’s flexibility in allowable configurations that I’m not tracking.

This is something you would discuss with the instructor you chose. I do not teach for GUE and can't answer specific questions about their standards.

I am in no way saying fundies is the only way. There are a lot of very very good divers and instructors who are in no way affiliated with GUE. I am just saying their fundamentals program is very good and if you start down that path, it will make all subsequent training easier regardless of what agency/program you decide on.

 

[The Chairman]

GUE? @mer and @kierentec are the IMO best choices.

Non GUE? @kensuf and @Capt Jim Wyatt would be my current choices.

These are all on SB, so you can look at their postings and see if you like them from a personality POV.

 

[berndo]

Why no entry-level sidemount diving?

Because religion. SM makes a lot more sense for cave diving.

Non-gue: You have to do research as other agencies generally have zero quality control and let everyone with a credit card become an instructor.
But can find a more instructors who aren't followers themselves and are more open an knowlegable about different systems like SM systems, CCRs, and gear in general and you don't have to pay the extra few thousand dollars. There is actual discussion about gear in procedure, whereas in gue you just follow a system: Like 'you can't use crush neo suits' or 'sidemount is only a tool for small cave' etc.
GUE: You don't have to do research and just follows the system but it's one-sided and there is cool aid. As you have noticed... great marketing but that good marketing has to be paid by someone and that someone is you.

It's kind of like asking for McDonalds vs normal restaurant... a normal restaurant can either give you food poisoning or be a michelin star joint or everything inbetween... with McDonalds you get the same everywhere... you likely wont get food poisoning... but it's Mc Donalds.

Now the gue fans will attack because you're not allowed to have an opinion unless you paid 8 grand to one of their preac... I mean instructors

I am just saying their fundamentals program is very good and if you start down that path, it will make all subsequent training easier regardless of what agency/program you decide on.

I have not taken fundies but all my further training was really easy. I dove with gue people higher than fundies in caves and OW... IMHO there is not secret source.

 

[Superlyte27]

Hey all,

I’ve read through decades worth of threads here asking “what agency is best”, “what instructors are best”, and I understand the answers aren’t that clear cut.

But I’m going to ask some questions again for a more general introduction to cave diving in Florida, and with a selfish desire to get your tailored instructor recommendations.

I’ve been diving ~10 years, through the PADI/SSI professional/recreational pipeline (lotta C-cards, lotta focus on gear sales, for not a lot of training), contracted with a working dive team (maritime archaeology—ton of diving, ton of experience, many bad habits), and lately spending a lot of low-stakes time solo diving to have free-form fun and work on fundamentals.

I’ve dreamt of exploring caves for years, and I’m in a position now (time, money and proximity to High Springs), to get started.

I’ve spoken with a handful of instructors over the last five years, to get a better feel for the initial glide path, but I still have some observations and questions to work through.

1. The various agencies have different standards, but ultimately it’s the instructor*, not the agency, that teaches you. GUE produces a lot of high-budget media and marketing, has a good network, good training documents, and I see a lot about how they produce good divers too (albeit, similarly high budget). For some reason, my kool-aid detectors go off re GUE, though this could just be my bitter grapes about the generally inflated cost of their training and the fundamentals prerequisite. Would you say that GUE training (ie a GUE instructor) provides a legitimately better cave/tech diving practice? Or is there some amount of kool-aid in that cup?
2. Are there any external benefits of diving with a given agency? Such as professional/expeditionary opportunities?
3. I’ve interviewed instructors, and while this is often the top comment, I’ve also trained with someone I thought was legit after an interview, and then had mediocre experiences. With that said, who have you* completed training with for entry level tech/cave in the High Springs area that really knocked your socks off?
4. The general attitude I’ve seen in the cave community is that diving alone is stupid. I get it, and I understand the risk aversion, along with the safety considerations for someone who’d have to try and make a recovery if a fatal error were made. Is there any* level of risk mitigation that could be employed to make solo cave diving palatable, or is the answer “yes, a buddy”?

To close this out, the expenses involved here are enormous. I’m sorry to ask some redundant questions, but I wanted to ask them myself to have the best chance of getting relevant information in order to make these decisions re intro cave training. I’d appreciate any and all insight on one or more of the questions above or something that I’ve not considered that I should. There are always some things I don’t know that I don’t know.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Joe

So…
I’m not a GUE instructor, but can say unequivocally that I’ve never seen a bad GUE diver in a cave ever. Not once. They simply don’t let mediocre students slip through the cracks, ever. Even I have had one student that I regret giving a card to, and thankfully he doesn’t dive anymore. Yes, GUE is expensive, and their marketing is great, but you get what you pay for. If price were no object, I’d start again and be a GUE instructor. There are lots of great instructors that are not GUE and for a fraction of the price and no Kool-aid feeling.

Is there a buddy I’ve dove with that absolutely knocked my socks off? Yes. James Draker is easily the best diver I’ve ever dove with by far. I used to dive with him a lot and his dedication to the hobby and his craft was more than anyone I have ever met. With that said, just because he might be the best, does not mean he’ll be the best for you. Reggie Ross was an amazing instructor, but I never met a single woman that took his class that was happy with him. Your personality types have to mesh.

As for solo diving…
It’s a different attitude in cave diving. A lot of us solo dive a lot. Frankly, if I don’t think you’re capable of making a dive on your own by the completion of our training, you’re likely not getting a cert card.

With that said, what’s the point of doing something really cool or seeing something friggin awesome if you have no one to share it with?

Let me know if you want to go to lunch and we can discuss more if you like.

Peter
407-304-9288