High Springs Intro Training Questions

[Adaptive Joe]

Hey all,

I’ve read through decades worth of threads here asking “what agency is best”, “what instructors are best”, and I understand the answers aren’t that clear cut.

But I’m going to ask some questions again for a more general introduction to cave diving in Florida, and with a selfish desire to get your tailored instructor recommendations.

I’ve been diving ~10 years, through the PADI/SSI professional/recreational pipeline (lotta C-cards, lotta focus on gear sales, for not a lot of training), contracted with a working dive team (maritime archaeology—ton of diving, ton of experience, many bad habits), and lately spending a lot of low-stakes time solo diving to have free-form fun and work on fundamentals.

I’ve dreamt of exploring caves for years, and I’m in a position now (time, money and proximity to High Springs), to get started.

I’ve spoken with a handful of instructors over the last five years, to get a better feel for the initial glide path, but I still have some observations and questions to work through.

1. The various agencies have different standards, but ultimately it’s the instructor*, not the agency, that teaches you. GUE produces a lot of high-budget media and marketing, has a good network, good training documents, and I see a lot about how they produce good divers too (albeit, similarly high budget). For some reason, my kool-aid detectors go off re GUE, though this could just be my bitter grapes about the generally inflated cost of their training and the fundamentals prerequisite. Would you say that GUE training (ie a GUE instructor) provides a legitimately better cave/tech diving practice? Or is there some amount of kool-aid in that cup?
2. Are there any external benefits of diving with a given agency? Such as professional/expeditionary opportunities?
3. I’ve interviewed instructors, and while this is often the top comment, I’ve also trained with someone I thought was legit after an interview, and then had mediocre experiences. With that said, who have you* completed training with for entry level tech/cave in the High Springs area that really knocked your socks off?
4. The general attitude I’ve seen in the cave community is that diving alone is stupid. I get it, and I understand the risk aversion, along with the safety considerations for someone who’d have to try and make a recovery if a fatal error were made. Is there any* level of risk mitigation that could be employed to make solo cave diving palatable, or is the answer “yes, a buddy”?

To close this out, the expenses involved here are enormous. I’m sorry to ask some redundant questions, but I wanted to ask them myself to have the best chance of getting relevant information in order to make these decisions re intro cave training. I’d appreciate any and all insight on one or more of the questions above or something that I’ve not considered that I should. There are always some things I don’t know that I don’t know.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Joe

 

[rddvet]

GUE was so late to the game with regard to Sidemount and CCR that I don’t give them a single consideration for either of those topics now.

Fully agree, at least in sm. I would not consider ever taking a GUE sm (if I ever got to the point in their system that I'd be allowed to). I would rather go to those that constantly use it. CCR is a little different. There are some things about the GUE ccr thoughts I like. But honestly being forced to be through Tech2 to move to a ccr in current helium shortage times is silly. I personally don't really care to move to tech 2 as 99% of my dives fall within normoxic trimix levels. So based on that I'd never be allowed to use a CCR and I'd waste a ton of money on helium. I do believe GUE will change that in coming years, but will be WAY behind the curve by then.

Lol, @rddvet
I blocked him years ago. Works great. You should try it. Your SB experience will be better for doing it.

Sometimes he's got decent points and I respect those when he does. Only reason I haven't yet. But lately you see what it's become.

 

[The Chairman]

That said, GUE's Cave 1 and Cave 2 are more expensive.

You get what you pay for.

 

[steinbil]

There are some things about the GUE ccr thoughts I like. But honestly being forced to be through Tech2 to move to a ccr in current helium shortage times is silly. I personally don't really care to move to tech 2 as 99% of my dives fall within normoxic trimix levels. So based on that I'd never be allowed to use a CCR and I'd waste a ton of money on helium. I do believe GUE will change that in coming years, but will be WAY behind the curve by then.

Just a heads up that GUE has changed the CCR progression from Tech 2 to Tech 1 already. Not sure how long ago, but this is current:

 

[DavidFL]

My experience with GUE and High Springs has been limited to Fundies split into two parts with a pandemic in between. Having said that:

1. Taking Fundamentals from a competent instructor (in my case Meredith Tanguay who was training Max Frenkel at the time; Wet Rocks Diving) went a long way towards overcoming the perception of being oversold by the public facing / marketing materials. While I have not become a complete GUE convert I have incorporated many of the GUE standardized gear specifications and practices into all of my rec and tec diving. Before I took Fundamentals, I didn't know GUE at all; I had a vague impression from an outsider's anecdotal exposure to George Irvine and DIR and UTD and exposure to GUE only from the publicly available online resources.

2. I was unable from a quick search to find citations, but GUE strongly encourages (and I think has actual requirements in their recertification processes) their instructors to be active divers outside of instruction and to contribute to the exploration and other goals of the agency. This requirement by itself doesn't provide any guarantee of course but it struck me then and now as a deterrent to instructors who complete instructor training and then live most or all of their diving life cranking out students.

3. In general terms, I have the same perception that GUE is more expensive, and that more of that higher price goes to the instructor. Again, it's not a guarantee, but providing for an instructor path that allows more instructors to be able to have a shot at a reasonable income if they choose to be an instructor full time and independent of a shop seems to me to be an approach that will pay off with better instructor quality overall.

 

[PfcAJ]

Hey all,

I’ve read through decades worth of threads here asking “what agency is best”, “what instructors are best”, and I understand the answers aren’t that clear cut.

But I’m going to ask some questions again for a more general introduction to cave diving in Florida, and with a selfish desire to get your tailored instructor recommendations.

I’ve been diving ~10 years, through the PADI/SSI professional/recreational pipeline (lotta C-cards, lotta focus on gear sales, for not a lot of training), contracted with a working dive team (maritime archaeology—ton of diving, ton of experience, many bad habits), and lately spending a lot of low-stakes time solo diving to have free-form fun and work on fundamentals.

I’ve dreamt of exploring caves for years, and I’m in a position now (time, money and proximity to High Springs), to get started.

I’ve spoken with a handful of instructors over the last five years, to get a better feel for the initial glide path, but I still have some observations and questions to work through.

1. The various agencies have different standards, but ultimately it’s the instructor*, not the agency, that teaches you. GUE produces a lot of high-budget media and marketing, has a good network, good training documents, and I see a lot about how they produce good divers too (albeit, similarly high budget). For some reason, my kool-aid detectors go off re GUE, though this could just be my bitter grapes about the generally inflated cost of their training and the fundamentals prerequisite. Would you say that GUE training (ie a GUE instructor) provides a legitimately better cave/tech diving practice? Or is there some amount of kool-aid in that cup?
2. Are there any external benefits of diving with a given agency? Such as professional/expeditionary opportunities?
3. I’ve interviewed instructors, and while this is often the top comment, I’ve also trained with someone I thought was legit after an interview, and then had mediocre experiences. With that said, who have you* completed training with for entry level tech/cave in the High Springs area that really knocked your socks off?
4. The general attitude I’ve seen in the cave community is that diving alone is stupid. I get it, and I understand the risk aversion, along with the safety considerations for someone who’d have to try and make a recovery if a fatal error were made. Is there any* level of risk mitigation that could be employed to make solo cave diving palatable, or is the answer “yes, a buddy”?

To close this out, the expenses involved here are enormous. I’m sorry to ask some redundant questions, but I wanted to ask them myself to have the best chance of getting relevant information in order to make these decisions re intro cave training. I’d appreciate any and all insight on one or more of the questions above or something that I’ve not considered that I should. There are always some things I don’t know that I don’t know.

Thanks for your help, everyone.

Joe

What are you searching for?

Quality instruction and easy integration into existing projects and teams around the world? Robust procedures that have been proven time and time again? An equipment config that prioritizes simplicity and reliability?

If that sounds like you, GUE might be the move.

Other agencies might offer more “flexibility”, but with that variance comes a lot of unknowns. You can easily question and vet what GUE is teaching because it is known. It is tougher to research and vet what some random CDS instructor is doing. Likewise, you can evaluate GUEs equipment recommendations and determine if it makes sense to you. Again, hard to determine that from a distance with your rando IANTD instructor.

There is a LOT of hot trash out there. Suspect procedures, poor equipment configurations, nonsense training progressions. GUE undoubtedly has removed all of that in their programs in almost all cases (there’s a little nonsense within GUE in my opinion).

 

[Adaptive Joe]

Team, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the discussion and all the insight you've offered.

The cave community, especially the local one, is relatively opaque in the media landscape I inhabit, and it looks like I finally found the useful community feedback here that I've been seeking.

To respond to a few comments:

GUE? @mer and @kierentec are the IMO best choices.

Non GUE? @kensuf and @Capt Jim Wyatt would be my current choices.

These are all on SB, so you can look at their postings and see if you like them from a personality POV.

A few of these names are starting to become familiar after seeing them referenced in a variety of sources. Coming from you, Sir, is great confirmation.

As for solo diving…
It’s a different attitude in cave diving. A lot of us solo dive a lot. Frankly, if I don’t think you’re capable of making a dive on your own by the completion of our training, you’re likely not getting a cert card.

Thanks for responding to this one. For some reason, I've always had a sense that solo diving is a taboo subject, and to mention an interest in it is some sort of faux pas. Does anyone have alternative opinions on this? Or is solo diving generally better accepted in the cave community?

Lots of way more experienced people than me commenting here, but if you want to stick with side mount[...]

Your $4k budget is the tip of the tech/cave iceberg.

I'm not super committed to sidemount or anything--I just have the equipment. As far as getting started in the tech/cave realm, I've felt that the equipment was a huge, expensive hurdle, so when I saw a new, full sidemount setup for ultra cheap, I took the bait. In hindsight, I should have probably waited until I had a better idea exactly* what equipment I needed/wanted.
From the diving budgets I've cooked up, I was thinking that 4k would get me equipment and at least an entry-level cave cert (ie, just beyond apprentice). Going further...I'll worry about that after I've run my first reel.

What Tracy said is absolutely correct. Taking fundies will make you a better diver and will teach you whether you want to continue along that path[...]

What GUE gives you is standardization in instruction at a very high level.[...]

Spend the money taking fundies, figure out how good a diver you really are and if you meld with GUE, and then go from there[...]

This sentiment seems to reign supreme in this thread. At this point, it seems like interleaving the GUE fundamentals class with other training would bring the most benefits as far as exposure to the different training regimes and techniques. Reminds me of a flight school addage "Ask one IP the best way to do a slope landing, and they'll give you a hundred different answers". Ultimately, exposure to the different schools, and trying out the techniques, brings the best skill growth.

For sidemount you might work with Edd at Cave Adevtures (not in high springs). He’s kind of drunk the kool-aid of always sidemount everywhere all the time forever. But he’s good.

I've seen Edd in a variety of media. Training with him would be awesome, but Marianna's just a smidge too far.

What are you searching for?

Quality instruction and easy integration into existing projects and teams around the world? Robust procedures that have been proven time and time again? An equipment config that prioritizes simplicity and reliability?

Yes. I definitely have a strong desire to dive with the aim of making useful contributions to the study of groundwater/karst systems, and exploration/mapping/cartography techniques more broadly. This realm is where GUE first landed on my RADAR, with their expedition media and their relation to the WKPP, etc. It's definitely a high-level ambition of mine to participate in a project of that scale and scope.

_________________________________________________________________________

You all have answered my questions, and then some. It's real useful to see the discussion, and paints a much better picture of the "how to choose an agency/instructor". After reading all your comments, and listening to my own instincts, I think I'll take a GUE fundamentals course for the basic exposure to DIR/GUE methods, and will focus on individual over agency when it comes to cave instructors. I'll plan to reach out to a few of the resources mentioned to continue the conversation, now that I'm much better equipped with some of these perspectives.

I'm super thankful for all you've said and welcome your additional insight. I'll do my best to provide updates.

You all are great.

 

[Wibble]

Nobody thus has made the very common statement that your choice of your instructor is far more important than the agency. It’s a long term relationship which you will have as you use them for courses and for mentoring. Your instructor must have a wealth of experience and knowledge across all forms of diving, not just from teaching.

Thus you need an instructor that is a very active diver for their own personal interests. They would probably organise trips to the good stuff in out of the way locations because they enjoy it, not just to make money selling spaces.

You must get on with that instructor’s teaching style. Each is different but they should challenge your development in a way that works for you, especially when something doesn’t go well. Patience is important as is knowing when to back off but never letting a difficult skill be omitted. Standards must always be high.

Your other challenge is to find a soulmate to practice and go diving with. Skills need a lot of practice to perfect.

Some agencies push practice and mentoring team skills and their specific protocols. This can be quite polarising — the kool aid — as theirs is the only correct way of doing things, the regimented team first approach. Whilst that may suit some people, it most definitely doesn’t suit everyone.

In any case, overhead diving requires superior skills and an unflappable response to challenges. This is especially important for core skills (buoyancy, trim and finning) which absolutely must be excellent before venturing underground.

There’s a lot of diving skills that takes many years to master. From your fundamental core skills, through decompression, stage cylinder handling, backmount/sidemount, CCR, deep diving, wrecks and caves. With the exception of basic skills, your chosen instructor should be an expert teacher in all of these disciplines.

 

[KevinNM]

The advantage of GUE is that the quality of instructions is very high. So if you randomly choose a GUE instructor and just showed up for class without talking (not a good idea) the chance that you would end up with an actual bad instructor is very small. You might end up with a mismatch for another reason (teaching styles vary etc), but nothing you learned will have to be unlearned if you find another GUE instructor.​

​

If you go to another agency it is up to you to screen the instructor. But as an intro student, do you have the skills or the connections to do this effectively?​

 

[Wibble]

The advantage of GUE is that the quality of instructions is very high. So if you randomly choose a GUE instructor and just showed up for class without talking (not a good idea) the chance that you would end up with an actual bad instructor is very small. You might end up with a mismatch for another reason (teaching styles vary etc), but nothing you learned will have to be unlearned if you find another GUE instructor.​

It will be taught to the agency’s specific procedures, not outside. Thus a bias to certain dogma. For example, kit must be configured in certain ways, all cylinders left, no bungees to control them, no adaptions for specific needs, etc.

If you go to another agency it is up to you to screen the instructor. But as an intro student, do you have the skills or the connections to do this effectively?​

Hence you choose the instructor over the agency. It’s a long term relationship over a wide range of skills.

 

[rddvet]

Just a heads up that GUE has changed the CCR progression from Tech 2 to Tech 1 already. Not sure how long ago, but this is current:

View attachment 810392

Seems I missed that. Wonder when it changed