teaching in standards can still be a "bad" instructor - split thread

[daniel f aleman]

I can name 2 but since I am affiliated with the shop I will keep their identities between myself and the shop owner. I have talked to the owner about both and neither have been given classes since the middle of last summer.


There is an example of a bad instructor that works within the agency standards. The name wouldn't mean anything to you if I gave it anyway.

Joe

Well, then your owner is doing his job by pulling students and he should recommend that they not get renewals. And the instructor trainers of those two ought to be contacted... and delt with.

 

[Sideband]

Instructor trainers? These guys have been teaching for 20+ years. I don't think the nurses at the old folks home would take kindly to that.

Joe

 

[aquaoren]

Mike,

The whole of point OW is to get people into diving, safely. That's it. I started diving with borrowed equipment when I was 13 in 1970 and I dived a thousand times before I was PADI certified in 1982 (and cave certified that same year, NACD) - and only then beacuse I needed the card to get gas at shops. The equipment back then: no BC, no octo, j-valves, bad-fitting neoprene - damn scary, when I think of what I did then. I never heard of a safety-stop, and knew NOTHING about basic deco theory. The advent of all the new equipment has made diving so e-a-s-y, even the disabled can dive. "Standards" have reflected this advancement... all-but fool-proof. Current diving standards work well enough... the least of which is shown in the fact that we can get insurance for it all.

Unfortunately IMHO, your post represents exactly what is wrong with most major certification agencies.

 

[daniel f aleman]

Unfortunately IMHO, your post represents exactly what is wrong with most major certification agencies.

Feel free to start one; that's what Gilliam did with TDI and Mount with IANTD concerning "Tech" instruction; go for it. Do better.

 

[neil]

Ok, I'm going to hijack this thread a bit, since it looks like some of you might be instructors or know quite a few of them. When you are learning to be a SCUBA instructor do they teach any pedagogy? Do they (the certification agency you happen to know about) give you methods to help you teach those who struggle and whatnot? After going to school for education I still flew by the seat of my pants the first year in the classroom! Also how much to the agencies give you that you have to work within and how much freedom do you have?

Hi Sirelroka,
I'm a NAUI instructor trainer. Most of the Instructor Training Course is dedicated to teaching theory and practice as it relates to diving. Since the course is much shorter than a school teacher's method classes, I assume it's not as intensive but is quite thorough and effective. You have to demonstrate that you can teach scuba using a standardized outline in class, pool and OW. There is discussion of how to deal with problems, the different way people learn, etc.
How much freedom you have depends on agency. NAUI affords their instructors plenty of freedom in terms of how courses are set up, materials, timing etc. With some exceptions, as long as you meet standards you can teach any way you want.
There's a lot more to say but this isn't the thread for it. PM me with any questions if you like.
Neil

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Feel free to start one; that's what Gilliam did with TDI and Mount with IANTD concerning "Tech" instruction; go for it. Do better.

LOL.

No need for a rebutal Oren ole chap, he made one for you, and it was better than you probably had

LOL

 

[RadRob]

Wow. This thread is really pointless. ALL agencies have "bad" instructors. After reading 5 pages of this nonsense I think the main point was we need to go to the agencies and let them know what things their instructors are doing that we think is dangerous. I agree that we need to express our displeasure with the standards (or lack thereof) they require to be certified. We do need to act and at least try to get changes made.

However, I disagree with the angle in which this thread was started. I owned a shop for 3 years and in that little amount of time, I had to go to PADI and NAUI both to get instructor's licenses revoked. If you can prove they have done something wrong or dangerously, they will work with you. It wasn't "by chance" that I had 2 bad apples. I went through training a few years earlier from one of the guys and the other was an asst. instructor for that course. At the time, I thought the training was sufficient because I didn't know any better. After being in the sport a few years, I realized what danger they put us all in. I bought the shop and did what I feel was right. I couldn't sit back and take the chance that one of these guys would end up hurting someone.

Just an example that shows at least 2 agencies with insufficient instructors.

 

[dherbman]

Al said that there are, "bad NAUI instructors". And he meant it in the way that there are bad instructors working within the NAUI standards. (This was stated to support earlier posts that implied that "bad" instructors are found in all agencies). I asked what he meant by "bad".

Mr. A.,

In 1979, there was an instructor at a local college. Certification is not really important, but he was not NASDS or SSI. He would not conduct open water check-outs during the cold months here, when water temps would dip below 60. He would typically hold students in limbo until water warmed up or check them out on a San Clemente trip our shop hosted.

Water temps here are 60 and above for a limited time. Maybe June-September. By October, they are in the low 50's.

These students never had to remove their masks in cold water. They'd come diving with our shop during cold weather and several lost their masks or had them flooded when kicked in the face or swept off by arm swimmers in the group. The effect on more than a few was to bolt for the surface. They were just terrible, but worse than that, they were not safe, nor were they safe to dive around.

The instructor in question felt that it wasn't safe to do flooded mask drills in cold water, but didn't see any problem releasing them on their own as certified divers. As I recall, he said something to the effect that it was cazy to be diving in Oregon anytime but the summer.

They had demonstrated proficiency in the required skills, but not in the environment where they would need them. In my book, this guy was a bad instructor.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

.

They had demonstrated proficiency in the required skills, but not in the environment where they would need them. In my book, this guy was a bad instructor.

But within standards. Danny says if they're within standards they must be a good instructor.

It appears Danny stands alone here. Thankfully.

Oh, the college is Naui

 

[MikeFerrara]

Feel free to start one; that's what Gilliam did with TDI and Mount with IANTD concerning "Tech" instruction; go for it. Do better.

A few of us considered it for a time. The fact is that I just don't think my lifes calling is to save the sport of diving. If the agencies want to sell the junk that they're selling and people want to buy it that's ok with me. On the other hand, I won't pat them on the back for it. Joblonski did start an agency for some of the same reasons and I'm really interested to see their entry level class if they come out with one. I, personally don't agree with the expireing certs but otherwise I think they've done a fantastic job. Divers teaching others to really dive...what a concept.

The way diving is taught (or not taught) does lead to problems. I've pulled enough divers out of the water to be comfortable saying that and these days I very rarely bother diving where the dive industry is oporating. The silted up sites and other more seriouse follies is just more than I care to put up with anymore and I sure don't want to pay to be subjected to it.

I don't care if people want to learn to dive without formal training. That's how I started and it's more than doable for some people. This certification stuff is just marketing silliness anyway. However, when a person does opt for going to a professional dive instructor they should get real dive instruction rather than this kneel on the bottom and breath stuff they're getting, IMO.

I was an active PADI instructor long enough that PADI should have made an easy sell job out of me. I started out believing everything they teach because that was the first thing I was taught. Instead, the more experience I gained diving and teaching the more convinced I became that PADI doesn't know the first thing about diving or teaching diving. They are very good at marketing though. Of course, if you look at RSTC standards or standards of some other agencies, there isn't any reason to expect much more from any of them. In the end I just decided that it was stupid to continue sending them money.

I don't know that I ever will go back to teaching diving but if I ever do, I will do it without any of the big agencies that are around today. They may present themselves as expert and people (usually not knowing any better) accept their assertion but I don't consider them expert or even competent.