Spiegel Grove??

[Jeff Toorish]

It happens, called Sock Puppets - violation of the TOS. That's pretty speculative, tho.


Don,

I wasn't speculating, that just popped into my head.

Jeff

 

[genenaples]

As a new member to the Boards I am just amazed at how some people are blaming instructors, PADI, the dive boat and on and on. We are all adults right? We all know the risks and accept them as part of the sport. If you were certified by ANY agency you know the following:

Dont dive on meds without the express consent of your doc.
If you have other mental issues, you should consult the docs.
When you gear up, you are responsible for you, don't count on anyone.

etc etc

Do you all expect to dive for the rest of your lives with DM and instructors.... on every dive?

Remember if it was not for the DM, instructors and dive boat operators and related agencys 90% of you would not be diving in the first place. Blaming everyone else is easy.... and an easy way to get more people hurt!

Diving is not and easy hobby, it takes work, study, dedication and keeping current with issues in the dive community. Someone wrote that DAN was an isurance co only!!! I am amazed that people would think a resource like DAN is an insuranace co only. Its your life, better keep current in your sport people.

Sorry about the rant folks, I know we are all entitled to our opinions but the posts expressed here only prove one thing. You can only count on yourself down there, your buddy will most likely be uninformed, under skilled and ready to take you down or up quite quickly.

 

[Ayisha]

The OW and AOW courses should be rolled into one as AOW is bits that should be in the basic but arent. In an ideal world id like to see those 2 courses merged into one to at least give a student a decent grounding.

Interesting that you should say that - because they apparently once WERE one course! My brother-in-law was PADI O/W certified around 20 years ago. His course took 2 months to complete, was intensive and detailed, and he is quite sure that he was certified to 130 feet with the O/W card. In his O/W course, they went to close to 130 feet after nearly 2 months. I have not verified this information - perhaps someone who's been diving that long can comment.

When I first got my AOW, he was shocked and asked "What do you mean you're learning Deep (U/W Navigation, Night, PPB, etc.) NOW? You've been diving for 3 months!" As I continued to get specialties, he continued to be shocked that most of them were not mandatory complete training in O/W. He says that everything was taught in one course and there were no advanced cards or specialties at that time.

At that time, I thought he was just old-fashioned, but over time I've come to realize that was the better, safer way. I also chose a weekend course even though it cost more just for "convenience".

I guess divers don't want to invest that much time (or money?) these days for that much training and shops want to make the money quickly and have a brisk new customer base. Then the divers get the bug and want to learn more... and more... and spend way more money... Touche.

 

[String]

As a new member to the Boards I am just amazed at how some people are blaming instructors, PADI, the dive boat and on and on. We are all adults right? We all know the risks and accept them as part of the sport.

My view is if a diver is under any kind of instruction (ie taking part in a course) their instructor has a duty of care towards them. If they ARENT then the only person with a duty of care to the diver is the diver himself.

Learn the risks, know the risks, accept the risks. If you NEED someone to hold hands then imho you should not have been certified as certification is supposed to be proof of competence.

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Interesting that you should say that - because they apparently once WERE one course! My brother-in-law was PADI O/W certified around 20 years ago. His course took 2 months to complete, was intensive and detailed, and he is quite sure that he was certified to 130 feet with the O/W card. In his O/W course, they went to close to 130 feet after nearly 2 months. I have not verified this information - perhaps someone who's been diving that long can comment.

When I first got my AOW, he was shocked and asked "What do you mean you're learning Deep (U/W Navigation, Night, PPB, etc.) NOW? You've been diving for 3 months!" As I continued to get specialties, he continued to be shocked that most of them were not mandatory complete training in O/W. He says that everything was taught in one course and there were no advanced cards or specialties at that time.

At that time, I thought he was just old-fashioned, but over time I've come to realize that was the better, safer way. I also chose a weekend course even though it cost more just for "convenience".

I guess divers don't want to invest that much time (or money?) these days for that much training and shops want to make the money quickly and have a brisk new customer base. Touche.

Hehehe. the agencies got REALLY smart in those 20 years $$$$$$$


.

 

[matts1w]

My brother-in-law was PADI O/W certified around 20 years ago. His course took 2 months to complete, was intensive and detailed, and he is quite sure that he was certified to 130 feet with the O/W card. In his O/W course, they went to close to 130 feet after nearly 2 months. I have not verified this information - perhaps someone who's been diving that long can comment.

When I first got my AOW, he was shocked and asked "What do you mean you're learning Deep (U/W Navigation, Night, PPB, etc.) NOW? You've been diving for 3 months!" As I continued to get specialties, he continued to be shocked that most of them were not mandatory complete training in O/W. He says that everything was taught in one course and there were no advanced cards or specialties at that time.

I was certified in April 1984 by PADI- 21 years ago. My instructor was on the Indianapolis Police Department search and recovery crew, etc...

I can assure you that AOW and OW were two different classes and certifications. We did five dives to about 28 feet for OW. I do not remember the course being all that different then it is now.

Three months later I did the AOW course. This is interesting, however, and I did not realize this until now when looking at my log book. I guess I knew this then, but I was only 14 years old So it must have slipped my mind. When we did the deep dive we only went to 35 feet and did a "deep simulation." Perhaps in Indiana that was all that was there in the two quaries that were used in training then? We did a natural navigation dive, compass dive, night dive, deep dive simulation, and a search and recovery where we raised one of those train cars two people ride by pumping a lever. Apparently the water was in the high 50s.

As much as I love being a Hoosier, I am glad I moved to Florida.

 

[bluwolf]

Interesting that you should say that - because they apparently once WERE one course! My brother-in-law was PADI O/W certified around 20 years ago. His course took 2 months to complete, was intensive and detailed, and he is quite sure that he was certified to 130 feet with the O/W card. In his O/W course, they went to close to 130 feet after nearly 2 months. I have not verified this information - perhaps someone who's been diving that long can comment.

PADI certified in Germany, 1984. Took OW, AOW, Navigation, and Deep Diver (140' I believe, but long since lost that log book), all seperate courses. Admittedly, I had already had a few dives under my belt (another story), and was already very comfortable in the water when I took my OW. Really don't think it was that much different then, as far as the courses go. But in my humble opinion, it's not the training that's important, it's the experiece you gain in the water that will get you through issues such as those discussed here. And this diver should not have been there, but it was his choice, not the instructors or the dive operation.

 

[DandyDon]

Hehehe. the agencies got REALLY smart in those 20 years $$$$$$$

They're corporations. They may not have stockholders who expect dividends, but they are self serving.

DAN had something of a problem in that area, but they bought him out. American Mensa had one, but she finally died and we moved the headquaters over a thousand miles. It can happen in any organization.

 

[scubatwinned]

Think about how the job market would be today if college professors passed everyone regardless of whether or not they met the standard. Would you want THAT kind of neurosurgeon working on you?
.

At collage/university theres a little thing called a bell curve...

 

[scubapolly]

You have a responsibility to be cognizant of ALL divers around you and look out for their well being at ALL times. STUDENTS have a responsibility to look out for their own well being as well as that of their insturctor. When my instructor began to get low on air during my check out dives, I was extra cognizant of her remaining pressure and stayed close to her in case she needed air. She exited with 600 psi left, an acceptable pressure level but I still looked out for her.

Students also must gain the academic knowledge required for the level of certification they are seeking. This will make them better divers as they understand dive theory and principles. STUDENTS MUST HOLD THEMSELVES TO STANDARD AND BE ACCOUNTABLE TO DEMONSTRATE THEM. I feel it is the responsibility of the student to be honest with themselves and their instructors. Students who with-hold information from their instructor are endangering not only themselves but their fellow divers as well. I chatted with my instructor last night and she said I was the first student she has had who was conerned about her well being.

I don't know if I could have made some of these comments better than my star student.

As a response to an earlier post asking if anyone ever fails AOW. It is not common that someone fails AOW, it does happen however. About 2 years ago there was an AOW student at an open water weekend from my shop. The student had been certified several years before and had only a handful of dives. After the first AOW dive, it was decided by all of the instructors from the shop present at the quarry to move her to the OW class instead.

At least in the classes that I have conducted, whatever the class, students typically fail in the confined water portion of the course. If they don't meet my requirements in that portion of the course, they either do a lot of extra work with me in the confined water, or they fail. This is all discussed when they sign up for the course.

I think part of the problem is that the entrance requirements are awful weak for SCUBA diving class in general. The swimming requirements are currently as low as "4 strokes in a forward direction" which is a joke in my opinion. I actually thought the former requirement of 200 yards was a joke. (however these requirements have allowed people to experience SCUBA diving who otherwise wouldn't have, MATTtheWonderBoy is an extreme example, but even those that are certified with Junior certs have benifitted) Luckily as a NAUI instructor, I am able to take the agencies standards as a minimum standard, and hold my students to a much higher one.

As 2Tours mentioned, he came to me with a lot of skin diving experience, but he still had to prove himself to me in the confined water, before I ever let him touch SCUBA gear let alone make OW dives. I let him (and all of my studnets) know well in advance that he would not be held to the Agency Standards, but instead would be held to the Polly Standards. In addition to the skin skills required by the agency, I also required him to do a skin bailout and a ditch and don. These are 2 tough skills, if you don't remain calm during the skills you will never be able to accomplish them. Once I was certain that he was comfortable in the water, then I added SCUBA gear. I didn't "baby" him. When he missed recovering his reg on the first try, I didn't immediatly shove my reg in his mouth, I waited for him to try a few more times, and it wasn't until he looked at me and signaled that he needed help that I gave him my reg. Seeing this skill as a weekness, he had to perform it flawlessly multiple times before we would move to the open water. When we did go to the open water, it went so flawlessly that we not only had time to include some additional skills such as liftbags and reels, but also had plenty of time to drop our jaws :11: at the Charlie Foxtrot of another openwater class at the same location.

You should trust your instructor, but you shouldn't depend on them. You are ultimatly responsible for yourself. I beleive that is one of the biggest mistakes that divers make going straight from OW to AOW, is they get to 10 dives and have never dove without being under instruction. Now that is not to say that with the state of most instruction going on, that 2 divers should take their OW class together and then start diving together. with no sort of guidance.

Something that I caught in one of Casemanager's post and no one else has questioned, is that he mentioned that when he was diving in Hawaii he was divng with an instructor. Was he taking a class there too, or did there just happen to be an instructor on the trip?

Also in the AOW class in question, did the instructor have prior contact with this student, ie classroom and pool, or was this a referal situation, or were these 2 important portions of any SCUBA class not utilized?

Having dove the SG several times myself, both when she was on her side, and since she has been righted, this is not a dive I would take an AOW class on. Those that have commented that it is an easier dive now that it is upright are quiet mistaken. The only thing that is easier since she is upright is penetration. The conditions that make her a challenging dive were not changed with the orientation of the ship itself. The conditions on the SG can change very quickly. I have never had 2 dives with the same condition on her even when doing multi-dives on the same day. The current can go from zero to ripping in less than an hour. It has been said many times in this thread, but I don't believe Casemanager had any business diving this wreck. First of all he should realized this based on his limited diving experience, and current medications. IF not, the instructor should have screened for these things. If the instructor didn't ask the appropriate questions, shame on him. If Casemanager failed to disclose pertinent info then shame on him.

I think there is a definate tendency on this board, to take one side of a situation, and jump to conclusions. Many are quick to blame the instructor in any situation, while there are many flat out $hitty instructors out there, Students need to take responsibility for themselves as well. I don't think this is a problem specific to our sport, but when you have a society where it is acceptable to sue McDonalds for serving you hot coffee and you being a big idiot and spilling it on yourself, and winning millions of dollars.... I think the problems is bigger than us.


Anyway I've rambled on enough on this topic. Bottom Line KNOW YOUR ABILITIES. and take responsitibility for yourself!


Polly