Spiegel Grove??

[Ayisha]

...I would also hope that dive shops would be responsible enough to fail them if they turn out not to be ready.

Apparently there's quite a bit of pressure on instructors to not only pass people, but do it quickly, painlessly, and on schedule for the shop. Instead of spending extra time/sessions with a student who is not "getting it", some instructors assume/hope that they will practice in the pool on their own and will get it before they get hurt. Once they have the c-card, however, who knows if they will ever practice again?

There is unfortunately a lot of pressure on instructors to not fail students and yet not spend extra time with them, and to bend or reinterpret the meaning of the concept of performing skills in a "reasonably comfortable fluid repeatable manner as would be expected of an Open Water Diver". There is a lot of willingness to take a diver's money without reasonably ensuring they are capable of making the dive, whether it be for O/W, AOW, or advanced dives. I know several amazing instructors who no longer teach or teach selectively because of their disappointment and having their "hands tied". What a shame...

Last summer in our area there was a girl taking the Advanced course who could not control her buoyancy at all, and had many runaway ascents. She passed anyway, even the Peak Performance Buoyancy. She continued to have runaway ascents and a couple of months ago spent time in a chamber after 2 runaway ascents (apparently equipment related) :11: She suffered tingling and mild nerve damage, which may or may not improve over time. A couple of weeks later, she was diving again. Unfortunately, divers don't always choose what's best for them, and don't always get a skill down pat after being whooshed through the system. :11:

 

[String]

There should be more "failiures" on courses. People have paid for a course NOT paid for a qualification - you have to earn it. Yes business demands and so on encourage fast and potentially not as detailed training but it should be avoided as much as possible. Passing someone on a skill they've failed shouldnt happen.

On the other hand from what ive seen of the syllabus AOW is really "Open water part 2". The OW and AOW courses should be rolled into one as AOW is bits that should be in the basic but arent. In an ideal world id like to see those 2 courses merged into one to at least give a student a decent grounding.

 

[HowardE]

I don't know the answer to this one, since I am not an instructor, but is it possible to fail a PADI AOW course? Or is it really just paying for a new card?

 

[Scuba]

Hey casemanager,

What about the fact that you have a history of panic? Why not tell them about the other prescription medications (yes multiple!) you were taking for this? What about the Nicorette gum you were chewing right before you went down? What about the fact that it was actually three Instructors and one Dive Master and the Dm was not there on the job, he was there for vacation. Two of the instructors were also just there on vacation and not a part of the training or the group. What about the fact that it was only 4 students and not 7.

Lets try and continue to fill in the blanks.

You were there, and you found all this out. Did the instructor know this too? Did he enquire? Assuming this is all correct, did Casemanager withhold this information from the instructor? Casemanager?

Was this a class dive or a combination group dive with multiple parties?

-----------

"The smartest thing to do after you complete your basic course is to sign up for an Advanced Openwater Course. The course will give you the opportunity to complete six more dives under the supervision of one of our instructors. Our goal is to take a competent diver and make him into a confident diver."

I'll bet they failed to inform you that some of these dives would expose you to greater and unncecessary risks and dangers than is suitable for the vast majority of divers at this level. To get more information on this issue see the thread entitle: "Safety-wise, should diver go straight from Open Water to a deep dive?" Shameless plug.

Obviously, Casemanager didn't do everything right. Is anyone surprised, coming from a diver with aprox. 26 dives in 4-5 years and consider the reality of OW training today? He did do right in seeking further training. And what did he get? Is that his fault, too?

Casemanager, why did you choose AOW? Did you consult with an instructor about your dive experience, issues to work on and objective? Was this class recommended as the class to take by a dive pro?

 

[Scuba_Steve]

Last summer in our area there was a girl taking the Advanced course who could not control her buoyancy at all, and had many runaway ascents. She passed anyway, even the Peak Performance Buoyancy. She continued to have runaway ascents and a couple of months ago spent time in a chamber after 2 runaway ascents (apparently equipment related) :11: She suffered tingling and mild nerve damage, which may or may not improve over time. A couple of weeks later, she was diving again. Unfortunately, divers don't always choose what's best for them, and don't always get a skill down pat after being whooshed through the system. :11:

Hey I've heard that story before somewhere

Well, that's what ya get when the blind lead the blind(er).

Surprises me? No.

Is it fixed? No.

No-one really cares enough yet, and I quote "The system works just fine how it is"

Fine for whom?

Selective teaching really is the only method if you want to do it properly anymore. The herd them in, slap their *** and pin a card on them mentality is so wanting I'd sooner sit home and make zilch.

 

[DandyDon]

I don't know the answer to this one, since I am not an instructor, but is it possible to fail a PADI AOW course? Or is it really just paying for a new card?

I have seen people fail OW check-out dives, but only because they just didn't finish the 4 dives. Instructors I've known would allow them to keep doing the checkout weekends until they passed - which encouraged the Instructor to work more closely with them as needed, but to also whiz them thru as much as possible.

From my memories of the course and what I learned, altho I had some experiences in free diving and snorkeling and whizzed thru it all - OW cards with less than 15 dives should only dive under the supervision of a DM.

 

[HowardE]

Don... I have also seen people fail the OW course, but I was asking if anyone actually fails the advanced open water?

 

[LJinFLA]

Scuba,

Due to the potential for liability issues involved in anything like this I prefer not to comment on behalf of the instructor in an open forum on what the instructor knew and DIDN'T know prior to this incident from casemanager. What I know I know from standing on the dock as casemanger talked to the sheriff and EMTs and what he told them about his history. I was also in a buddy pair that was close by when the incident apparently happened.

It was a group dive. There were those in the class, and a number of others like myself that came along for the weekend to enjoy some great diving. There were also some others from california that happened to be on the boat as well.

I hope you don't get me wrong here. I am very glad that casemanager is OK and have no emotion about this. I just met him on this dive and he seemed like a nice enough guy. I just really feel that after hearing this story in person and on this board that he is still trying to blame everyone around him and he still has some serious soul searching to do before he decides to sign another waiver and go where he probably shouldn't go. Let's not forget that if everything I know about this is true, if he goes there again he not only puts himself at risk but potentially his buddy or others around him. We have all read many stories about paniced divers taking their buddy for a ride with them to the surface, the chamber or worse.

LJ

 

[scubatwinned]

Nope! They do offer dive insurance in addition to the member services and free services to anyone, but this is not at all their reason for existing. You are welcome to look into this great organization.

BTW, if I got my insurance elsewhere, I'd still be a member of DAN. Great organization.

Both are good sources. Perhpas you should look into DAn tho...?

Thanks for the info I shall

 

[Scuba]

ljINfla,

Thank you for a thoughtful response.

You do bring up a point that can not be overemphasized enough. All divers should fully disclose pertinent health or dive deficiency items to their buddy, instructor, and dive op . Panic prone is as serious as serious gets underwater.