Hi Waynne:
Best first post I think I've ever seen.
Welcome (errr kinda, Feb 2002)
Best first post I think I've ever seen.
Welcome (errr kinda, Feb 2002)
Spiegel Grove??
- Thread starter casemanager
- Start date
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casemanager:
It would only be slander if it were untrue (and technically, if it were spoken, not written) but I digress.
CaseManager,
I think everyone who has been following this thread would like to hear your response to this. If you came here to learn, the only way that can possibly happen is if you give everyone here all the facts as they relate to this incident.
Jeff
Granted that this thread has digressed into the discussion about the validity of AOW etc. The starter of the thread obviously has a problem with bouyancy control (rapid ascent), and has accumulated about 25 dives over 6 years, according to his previous posts. The POINT or questions that I posed earlier in this thread are still valid...
1) does anyone FAIL AOW? I am not an instructor, so I don't know... But it seems like the answer is NO. AOW seems like it's just a paid for C-Card that says "advanced" wheather the diver is actually advanced or not.
2) From my experience with my AOW... Bouyancy control isn't even examined with respect to AOW by PADI (whom I am certified with)...
Like waynne fowler said in his post... Certified to 100' - that's a bunch of crap, and everyone knows it. There's nobody to stop anyone from diving as deep as they want to. It just so happens that dive ops that dive the Speigel Grove require an advanced C-Card... Because the SG is an "advanced dive" ... My wife and I had over 50 logged dives, with MOST of them at depth below 60' (as deep as 110') and with a current. We didn't have our AOW the last time we went to key largo, and the dive shop we were with, didn't even care to look at our log book, or call our LDS to see that we were more than qualified to make the dives on the SG.
IMHO - The agencies involved should simply increase the standards for "advanced" - by making it easy, thus lessens the meaning of the certification. I also think that there should also be a pre-requisite for the number of dives you have under your belt before you can receive an advanced certification...Like maybe 25 dives for advanced... 40 or 50 for Rescue Diver, etc. How can anyone truly be advanced when they only have 10 dives in? HONESTLY.
1) does anyone FAIL AOW? I am not an instructor, so I don't know... But it seems like the answer is NO. AOW seems like it's just a paid for C-Card that says "advanced" wheather the diver is actually advanced or not.
2) From my experience with my AOW... Bouyancy control isn't even examined with respect to AOW by PADI (whom I am certified with)...
Like waynne fowler said in his post... Certified to 100' - that's a bunch of crap, and everyone knows it. There's nobody to stop anyone from diving as deep as they want to. It just so happens that dive ops that dive the Speigel Grove require an advanced C-Card... Because the SG is an "advanced dive" ... My wife and I had over 50 logged dives, with MOST of them at depth below 60' (as deep as 110') and with a current. We didn't have our AOW the last time we went to key largo, and the dive shop we were with, didn't even care to look at our log book, or call our LDS to see that we were more than qualified to make the dives on the SG.
IMHO - The agencies involved should simply increase the standards for "advanced" - by making it easy, thus lessens the meaning of the certification. I also think that there should also be a pre-requisite for the number of dives you have under your belt before you can receive an advanced certification...Like maybe 25 dives for advanced... 40 or 50 for Rescue Diver, etc. How can anyone truly be advanced when they only have 10 dives in? HONESTLY.
*Floater*
Contributor
Ayisha:
When I got my OW cert I was traveling in Taiwan. Time and money were a real issue, so I was glad that OW was a fairly short $300 course. Sure, a longer, more expensive and more comprehensive course would have taught me more, but I wasn't even sure how serious I was about diving at the time. $300 seemed like a lot to spend on something I might do once or twice a year if the vacation spot allowed. That was then, now I plan my vacations around scuba.
Combining OW and AOW would exclude a lot of people from the sport to the detriment of both the scuba agencies/industry as well as many of the divers who would not have taken it up in the first place were they not able to initially dip their toes in it at a reasonable cost.
howarde:
Buoyancy control was very much part of my AOW , in fact it was one of the reasons given by my instructor why we should take the AOW class before we took the National Geo Diver course (we were one of the first here, was not coupled to OW training) so instead of concentrating on buoyancy in the Nat Geo class, we could do more difficult tasks, in more difficult conditions, and get more out of it (and have more fun) ... He was right
DB
DB
bluwolf
Guest
casemanager:
Were any of his statements false regarding your history and the niccorrete gum?
casemanager:
To quote you from post #12: "I Thought All Dm's Are The Same But Thst Is Not True. Why Wasnt My Instructor Watching His Students Instead Of Checking Out The Wreck?" Although it is true all DMs are not the same, sure sounds like an attack to me.
casemanager:
Again, it's not the number of dives in your logbook or the training you have received which defines your experience, it's the quality of the dives you have made, and the experience you have gained from them. How do you know you was the 'more experienced' diver?
LJinFLA
Contributor
Casemanager,
First, let's clear something up. In English and American law, and systems based on them, libel and slander are two forms of defamation (or defamation of character), which is the tort or delict of making a false statement that negatively affects someone's reputation. Defamatory communication in writing is termed "libel" while one made via the spoken word is termed "slander.
First, my statements about you would have to be false. Second, they would have to cause you harm or defame your character in some way. Since this site is anonymous and no names are used, there is no harm to you. So let's set this legal nonsense behind us.
If you are sincere in your search for advice and knowledge about this situation then it is important that that advice be based on a complete understanding and knowlege of the whole situation. My information was provided in a sincere effort to help you learn from this incident, not to harm you in any way. I have nothing against you and, as said earlier, thought you are a pretty nice person. What I hope is that you will listen to some of the advice being given here. Everyone here wants to see you continue to dive in an environement that builds your skills and confidence and does not endanger you or others around you. I did not imply or assert overall blame on anyone in this incident. Typically these types of incidents are caused by a long series of decisions made by people that result in other decisions, that result in other decisions. This cascading effect just builds on the problem. The key to understanding is to understand the decisions and what they were based on and trace them back to their root causes. This cannot be done without complete information.
I stuck my two cents in becuse I still think you are not being entirely honest with yourself and others about this incident. You will never learn the proper lessons here or anywhere unless you are. That means that you will probably be back in a position to do harm to yourself, or worse, to others someday.
Please, listen to what people are saying here. Listen to the things that you can fix and control. Stop trying to find someone to blame and start trying to understand what happened and why, and then change the things about those events that you can so it doesn't happen again. and if they can't be changed, then maybe the best decision is not to dive or not to dive in that risk profile again.
LJ
First, let's clear something up. In English and American law, and systems based on them, libel and slander are two forms of defamation (or defamation of character), which is the tort or delict of making a false statement that negatively affects someone's reputation. Defamatory communication in writing is termed "libel" while one made via the spoken word is termed "slander.
First, my statements about you would have to be false. Second, they would have to cause you harm or defame your character in some way. Since this site is anonymous and no names are used, there is no harm to you. So let's set this legal nonsense behind us.
If you are sincere in your search for advice and knowledge about this situation then it is important that that advice be based on a complete understanding and knowlege of the whole situation. My information was provided in a sincere effort to help you learn from this incident, not to harm you in any way. I have nothing against you and, as said earlier, thought you are a pretty nice person. What I hope is that you will listen to some of the advice being given here. Everyone here wants to see you continue to dive in an environement that builds your skills and confidence and does not endanger you or others around you. I did not imply or assert overall blame on anyone in this incident. Typically these types of incidents are caused by a long series of decisions made by people that result in other decisions, that result in other decisions. This cascading effect just builds on the problem. The key to understanding is to understand the decisions and what they were based on and trace them back to their root causes. This cannot be done without complete information.
I stuck my two cents in becuse I still think you are not being entirely honest with yourself and others about this incident. You will never learn the proper lessons here or anywhere unless you are. That means that you will probably be back in a position to do harm to yourself, or worse, to others someday.
Please, listen to what people are saying here. Listen to the things that you can fix and control. Stop trying to find someone to blame and start trying to understand what happened and why, and then change the things about those events that you can so it doesn't happen again. and if they can't be changed, then maybe the best decision is not to dive or not to dive in that risk profile again.
LJ
OP
casemanager
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well ljinfl, i didnt know you were an MD, where did you learn that I have a panic disorder? How did you learn about my medical history? How did you come up with the untrue fact that I was talking to a sheriff at the dock when I had an oxygen mask on and they were transporting me to the ambulance? Wheher I was chewing nic gum which is an over the counter alternative to smoking, are you now an expert on the effects of nicotine and scubadiving?, really doesnt make a difference as other people were smoking cigarettes on the boat. I have dived before and never experienced this panic situation nor have I ever felt that I was being unwatched. I give total respect and trust to my instructor when I dive anytime. They are MASTERS. Did I have any alcohol the night before, like you did? I never blamed the dry crew/boat captain, they were super awesome, they saved my life and I am truely grateful to them for the rest of my life. The point is that I was doing a checkout dive with my instructor, I have dived before and have always been carefully watched by my instructors. Thats why they are instructors, they are trained in noticing certain things that I am not as a open water diver. Maybe you should talk to my instructor about whether I disclosed any medical conditions prior to the dive before assuming and posting slanderous lies. If you read my original post, I told people that I had the patch on for motion sickness. I just asked for any help in identifying what happened to me and what I could learn from more experienced people. Another one of your lies was that my instructor was on vacation, what about the money I paid for the class, isnt an instructor suppose to watch you when you are doing a new checout dive and you are his STUDENT? Is there any responsibility? I never have blamed my buddy, I just would never dive with him again. 7 students for your record book.
LJinFLA
Contributor
I am not claiming any medical knowledge. I also never said your instructor was on vacation. Go back and reread my posts. I stand by what I have said here about this incident and how I have come by the facts that I have presented. I was there for all of it. All of this was common knowledge on the boat after the ambulance pulled away and we headed back to our port.
Listen, this is not personal. You posted this here to learn. You do not appear to willing to consider the fact that there may be more that contributed to this incident than the things outside of your control. I am beginning to think that you may never get the point of all the posts people are making here.
All I will say then is I hope you ultimately will be honest with yourself if not with all of us here. If you can't be honest in a anonymous forum then I doubt you will be with yourself. In the future just give some serious consideration to the people you will dive with and risks you are exposing them to.
LJ
Listen, this is not personal. You posted this here to learn. You do not appear to willing to consider the fact that there may be more that contributed to this incident than the things outside of your control. I am beginning to think that you may never get the point of all the posts people are making here.
All I will say then is I hope you ultimately will be honest with yourself if not with all of us here. If you can't be honest in a anonymous forum then I doubt you will be with yourself. In the future just give some serious consideration to the people you will dive with and risks you are exposing them to.
LJ
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