Spiegel Grove??

[scubapolly]

I've assisted in over 75 classes and that just doesn't sit right. If students "typically fail" anything then there is something wrong with the instruction. Of course there are a few that just don't get it or are slower at getting it but if failure is the norm then whatever it is needs to be presented differently. .......... My point is, if all students seem to have a problem then the problem probably isn't with the students.

First of all, as I have experience with special ed kids, both in the water and out, I am very familiar with using multiple methods of instruction not to mention individual instruction. I spend 3 months of the year teaching SCUBA to nothing but kids 12-17 years old. Many of which are non-native english speakers, and have even had kids that I have brought in an interpreter to make sure I was giving the students the best possible instruction. I have even taught children and adults with autism to dive. Because some of the instruction techniques that I use are so over-simplified, I appoligize with students like 2Tours that somethings might seem very juvinile, but it insures they learn it right the first time.


Second of all, I can't seem to find where I said that ALL of my students fail. Without rereading my exact post for a quote, I believe what is said was something to the effect that, of the students that fail, it is in the confined water that this happens. "Fail" actually was probably the wrong word to use as it is typically a mutual decission between the student and myself that this isn't the right sport for them, or it isn't the right time for them to be taking the class. This comes about after a long discussion of the skills they are having issues with, and what needs to be done to overcome these problems. Typically they aren't "into" the sport enough to want to put in the extra effort. Also working with the young students that I do, we often have the discussion that maybe they need to wait a year until they are bigger, stronger, and more mature.

The standards I remember reading were 225 yards and have been reduced to 15 strokes.

On this point I did rechecked my S&P and I am in error, at any number, I think we all agree this is rediculosly low. While many argue you don't need to be able to swim to dive, I believe one's swimming ability is a major predictor of their overall comfort level in the water.

Now mind you I don't know you and have never seen your class but what you write seems a bit extreme.

Well there are 2 who have posted on this tread who have been in classes of mine, and I think will back me up that my teaching is not extreme, but thorough, or extensive are terms that might be used. In addition, there are numberous others on this board that have been in classes of mine, or have been present when I have been teaching that will also agree.

The goal of BOW is to make them safe to continue their education both on their own and through further formal classes. I think there are generally three kinds of divers. Those that will get certified then not dive again after the vacation they have planned, those that dive a few times a year while on vacation and those that dive regularly and will continue their education. The first two groups won't retain enough from class to make the extra requirements worthwhile. The last group is going to continue to better themselves any way they can. Demanding great buoyancy or flawless execution of skills is not, imo, the purpose of BOW.

I think this depends on your definition of safe. I can teach a person to dive in 15 minutes- that is what we call a discover SCUBA. It takes a considerable greater amount of time to teach a diver to be safe. This comes from both academics (the text book, reading great publications like dive training and alert diver, and from places like SCUBA Board) and from practice. In the confined water my students face a number of situations that could happen (mask ripped off, tank comes loose, etc). In the middle of open water dives, they are "surprised" with me being out of air, and other unexpected situations. 2Tours is the first student I ever had, that I couldn't really surprise, because he actually asked me for my tank pressure throughout the dive.

Now, maybe I read more into what you wrote than you intended. If so, I apologize.

Joe

Apology accepted.

 

[pilot fish]

Let me highlight a couple of points here, striving for clarification of facts...


He did post in his second that he has had 25 dive, and while I agree that's still pretty green, he dived to 105 feet last month...


And may I suggest that insults are not productive here...

Thanks for the clarification That clears up why an instructor might have thought he was OK to do the Grove, huh?

 

[casemanager]

For The Record, I Do Not Have Panic Attacks Or A Panic Diagnosis. This Is An Assumption Based On The Other Person Who Was Left On The Boat For 2 Hours After I Was Evaced.

He Claims Numerous Things But He Is Not My Doctor Or My Instructor. As A Student, I Think We Students Put Our Faith In An Instructor Because We See Them As Experienced.

Having Dived Before In Numerous Parts Of The World And Never Having Experienced An Underwater Panic Attack, I Can Draw On Only Experience And Comfortability With Diving With An Instructor.

Once Again, For The Record I Do Not Have Panic Disorder. Maybe This Person Who Claims These Things Should Tell Us Of Every Medicine He Takes Before He Becomes A Medical Professional.

To Me, He Sounds Like A Very Angry Person. I Can Only Assume That He Is Mad That He Had To Wait 2 Hours At The Dock To Be Interviewed.

I Never Planned On This Happening, It Happened. Again, It Was My Fault For The Rapid Acsent. It Was Not The Instructors Fault. I Just Made An Indication That Maybe If My Instructor Was Watching His Students Instead Of The Wreck, Things May Of Been Different. That Is Only Speculation. I May Be Wrong. I Am Trying To Use This Web Page As A Learning Tool. I Do Not Feel That It Is Necessary To Tell All Of You My Medical History.

There Are Too Many People Out Here Who Think They Have Md's And Know What Is Best For Everyone.

 

[DandyDon]

Thanks for the clarification That clears up why an instructor might have thought he was OK to do the Grove, huh?

Nope, just clarifying facts, just in case..

 

[stu_in_fl]

so, completely adding nothing productive to the discussions/arguments everyone is having on this thread (but just sitting here bored in my house): just wondered, is Capitalizing Every First Letter half way between talking (in lower case) and shouting (UPPERCASE) ?!

 

[pilot fish]

For The Record, I Do Not Have Panic Attacks Or A Panic Diagnosis. This Is An Assumption Based On The Other Person Who Was Left On The Boat For 2 Hours After I Was Evaced.

He Claims Numerous Things But He Is Not My Doctor Or My Instructor. As A Student, I Think We Students Put Our Faith In An Instructor Because We See Them As Experienced.

Having Dived Before In Numerous Parts Of The World And Never Having Experienced An Underwater Panic Attack, I Can Draw On Only Experience And Comfortability With Diving With An Instructor.

Once Again, For The Record I Do Not Have Panic Disorder. Maybe This Person Who Claims These Things Should Tell Us Of Every Medicine He Takes Before He Becomes A Medical Professional.

To Me, He Sounds Like A Very Angry Person. I Can Only Assume That He Is Mad That He Had To Wait 2 Hours At The Dock To Be Interviewed.

I Never Planned On This Happening, It Happened. Again, It Was My Fault For The Rapid Acsent. It Was Not The Instructors Fault. I Just Made An Indication That Maybe If My Instructor Was Watching His Students Instead Of The Wreck, Things May Of Been Different. That Is Only Speculation. I May Be Wrong. I Am Trying To Use This Web Page As A Learning Tool. I Do Not Feel That It Is Necessary To Tell All Of You My Medical History.

There Are Too Many People Out Here Who Think They Have Md's And Know What Is Best For Everyone.

First let me say that it's a brave thing to come on here and relate this accident. Hope you will learn what YOU did wrong and how to improve ? I also hope that divers do not gang up on you but give CONSTRUCTIVE advice, not a feeding frenzy.
Why do you capitalize each word? Seems time consuming?

 

[LJinFLA]

Again Casemanager, I have made no medical diagnosis nor expressed any medical opinion. I have no emotion about this whatsoever nor any axe to grind here. I have presented the facts as I know them. You are free to deny any of them or counter them. That is fine. This is all about learning right? What I do know is that the things I witnessed, heard directly from the horse's mouth, and know about the potential for problems that can come from those things, lead me to believe that you take great risks with your life and others by diving.

Don't listen to me. Go get some honest input from a Medical professional that knows diving physiology and chemical interactions in the body under pressure (kind of like the ER doc that treated you at the chamber, who you quoted earlier, who told you you should never dive again. Why did he recommend that?). All I ask is that you look at these factors seriously before moving forward.

LJ

 

[scubapolly]

so, completely adding nothing productive to the discussions/arguments everyone is having on this thread (but just sitting here bored in my house): just wondered, is Capitalizing Every First Letter half way between talking (in lower case) and shouting (UPPERCASE) ?!

Was wondering the same thing myself.

Casemanager: When you don't give us the full story that leads to a lot of speculation. Start from the begining, give us all the details. Be sure to include what your contact with this instructor was before the dives on the Grove.

 

[hvulin]

Having Dived Before In Numerous Parts Of The World And Never Having Experienced An Underwater Panic Attack, I Can Draw On Only Experience And Comfortability With Diving With An Instructor.

well, 25 dives is not really enough to be sure what you will experience in an extreme situation

To Me, He Sounds Like A Very Angry Person. I Can Only Assume That He Is Mad That He Had To Wait 2 Hours At The Dock To Be Interviewed.

I once waited 4,5 hours, but this guy was dead! Believe me, at the end of this 2 hours they were all happy you are still alive and not angry at all (relieved sounds better than angry)

 

[2Tours N Iraq`]

Ok, all bickering aside, ljINfla is right, we need all the information before anyone on this thread can offer up some advice. I am not one who is qualified to diagnose the root of a problem or what causes them. I can only suggest techniques and experiences I have had in a life and death situation in combat and apply them to diving.

Also, ScubaPolly is an excellent instructor who ensures her students are good quality divers, not just underwater compressed air breathers (if you need the difference explained to you then you fall into the latter category). The skills and training standard Polly requires of her students should be the norm in scuba training. I also feel her post was mis-interpreted. She doesn't typically fail students in the confined water portion of OW cert. She will fail a student in a certain skill or set of skills and work with them until they pass AND she is sure the student is comfortable with that skill or skill set. if you check out the November 2004 issue of Dive Training magazine you will have a better understanding as to why Polly requires so much of her students as that issue illustrates the history of diving and why some people still consider it an extreme sport. My hat is off to Polly for maintaing a standard when the agencies have let them slip.