Spiegel Grove??

[LJinFLA]

In regards to the issue of responsibility that often comes up in these threads, there is an often confused but definite difference between ULTIMATE and SOLE responsibility. I have never placed Sole responsibility on one source, unlike many who repeatedly and mistakenly place Sole responsibilty on One source based on who is Ultimately
responsible.

Scuba,

Again, That is one of the best points that has been made here yet. I can say with authority that there are alot of parties involved in this incident who could be said to bear a portion of the ultimate responsibilty here. There is no sole reposnsibilty in this case. I am certain that most everyone invloved is dealing with whether and how they share in the ultimate responsibilty. The only thing that can be done by the parties involved is to deal with the portions of the responsibilty they own and understand them and take action toward avoiding them in the future. This includes casemanager, the instructor, the buddy, and even me, who was close enough to have moved up to them after hearing the tank banging to find out if everything was as calm as it appeared when I looked at them. Everyone will be playing "what if' for some time.

LJ

 

[TekDiveGirl]

GIVE ME A BREAK BUDDY. i'M A GREAT DIVER. judging people like that is bull. I know a lot of of dive teams that hold on to each other. Up here in Canada the vis can get pretty low, i'd rather keep track of my buddy then loose them because my ego was too big.
don't bother commenting back either i don't want to hear it. Its divers like you we can all live without

Holy Smokes BatGirl --

Where in the heck did that come from???

I scrolled back to double check -- but from what I could gather he was nowhere talking nor refering to you at all.

Why in the world did you take his post so personally???

Are there some underlying issues here that you would like to discuss?

Kimber

 

[LJinFLA]

In your other post you said:

"What about the fact that you have a history of panic"

That sure sounds like a medical diagnosis or opinion.
How did you get this factual information?

That was strictly based on what I overheard, as stated earlier. It is not a medical opinion, nor a diagnosis.

LJ

 

[octgal]

you know what, i'm done with this board too. Maybe he didn't mean it to me, but i simply can't be bothered anymore

safe diving people

 

[TheRedHead]

well ljinfl, i didnt know you were an MD, where did you learn that I have a panic disorder? How did you learn about my medical history? How did you come up with the untrue fact that I was talking to a sheriff at the dock when I had an oxygen mask on and they were transporting me to the ambulance? Wheher I was chewing nic gum which is an over the counter alternative to smoking, are you now an expert on the effects of nicotine and scubadiving?, really doesnt make a difference as other people were smoking cigarettes on the boat. I have dived before and never experienced this panic situation nor have I ever felt that I was being unwatched. I give total respect and trust to my instructor when I dive anytime. They are MASTERS. Did I have any alcohol the night before, like you did? I never blamed the dry crew/boat captain, they were super awesome, they saved my life and I am truely grateful to them for the rest of my life. The point is that I was doing a checkout dive with my instructor, I have dived before and have always been carefully watched by my instructors. Thats why they are instructors, they are trained in noticing certain things that I am not as a open water diver. Maybe you should talk to my instructor about whether I disclosed any medical conditions prior to the dive before assuming and posting slanderous lies. If you read my original post, I told people that I had the patch on for motion sickness. I just asked for any help in identifying what happened to me and what I could learn from more experienced people. Another one of your lies was that my instructor was on vacation, what about the money I paid for the class, isnt an instructor suppose to watch you when you are doing a new checout dive and you are his STUDENT? Is there any responsibility? I never have blamed my buddy, I just would never dive with him again. 7 students for your record book.

Casemanger,

I haven't finished reading through this tome of a thread, but at this point I notice that no one has mentioned the possibility of hypoxnia or CO2 buildup caused by breathing quickly and shallowly which can happen when you feel anxious. From http://www.scuba-doc.com/hypvnt.htm

What is Hyperventilation

Hyperventilation is the breathing response kicked off by chemical changes in the blood such as high CO2 or low oxygen level. It can also be set off by an acute panic attack or anxiety attack. It occurs mainly in out of shape, inexperienced divers or in divers with malfunctioning regulators. <snip>

It can cause the dizziness you experienced and turn anxiety into a full blown panic attack True vertigo where the outside world spins in circles is different and usually associated with ear problems. I had it once briefly and I couldn't have made an ascent if I had wanted to. My buddy told me later that I was bobbing around looking strange. I didn't panic. I caught myself starting to hyperventilate and concentrated on breathing deeply and slowly.

Your panic attack may have been induced because you are an inexperienced diver who found yourself in an environment with too many stressors.

If you do decide to return to diving, you REALLY need to learn to be comfortable diving without a DM or instructor in shallow water and work to deeper diving slowly, over a period of many dives. I don't think it is instructive to blame anyone including you because if you had a panic attack in that environment, you weren't ready for it. If your instructor had been by your side and dropped dead of a heart attack, would you have been able to get the attention of other divers and make a controlled ascent (including safety stops) to the surface? If an instructor by your side had prevented a full blown panic attack, then that kind of experience probably would not have made you ready for a deep dive without an instructor by your side, with potentially disastrous consequences. This may have been a blessing in disguise. Panic kills divers and panicked divers can kill their buddies.

Further reading on diving and panic:
http://dcolvard.home.mindspring.com/UJ1Q03p040_044_qxd.pdf
http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/medical/articles/article.asp?articleid=38
http://www.scubadiving.com/index2.php?option=content&task=view&id=3095&pop=1&page=0

 

[LJinFLA]

you know what, i'm done with this board too. Maybe he didn't mean it to me, but i simply can't be bothered anymore

safe diving people

Octgal,

Please do not give up on this board over this thread. This is great place, full of well intentioned people with a wealth of knowledge about the sport. Like any consumer, the trick is to read with realistic view as to who is stating the opinion, and why.

this is true in all human interaction. everyone has opinions. take the ones that make sense to you and ignore the rest. You won't find the wealth of opinions to choose from on this sport anywhere else. Hang in there.

Why has this thread become so emotional. This is not the purpose. It is very hard for someone to put themselves out there for discussion by others that they don't know. But since this is all anonymous it offers protection to the individual such that there really should be no concerns about opinions statements etc.

Likewise, because it is anonymous many are a bit cavalier about how they state their opinions. that is why it is so important to take the comments expressed here with a grain of salt.

Don't go octgal...

LJ

 

[hvulin]

you know what, i'm done with this board too. Maybe he didn't mean it to me, but i simply can't be bothered anymore

safe diving people

he he, you're too new to the forum stuff...

before there were the newsgroups (usenet) and now forums kick in, but it's still all the same! don't take it so personal because this forum is too good to ignore just because you get upset so easily...

 

[octgal]

you're right i am new, and was waaaaaay to sensitive, kind of funny now when i look back. thanks for the messages guys. I just didn't like the way everyone jumped all over this poor guy who was only asking for help. Sounded like a lot of people were trying to be experts when they aren't.

 

[LJinFLA]

you're right i am new, and was waaaaaay to sensitive, kind of funny now when i look back. thanks for the messages guys. I just didn't like the way everyone jumped all over this poor guy who was only asking for help. Sounded like a lot of people were trying to be experts when they aren't.

Way to go OCTGAL!!!!

 

[2Tours N Iraq`]

I agree with Octogal, as I stated before, this is a place for learning and debate, not finger pointing and bickering. Most everyone I have chatted with on the boards are nice people and normally don't jump all over someone. Let us all go in peace and learn from casemanager's experience.

"A smart man learns from his mistakes but a wise man learns from the mistakes of others"