Spiegel Grove??

[pilot fish]

I'm not too sure what you mean by that, however i am a olmypic swimmer so yes i think i can handle myself in the water. I think your above statement was soo funny, just cannot win on this board can you.

ok guys leave me out of this, i had my emotional moment and admit it, move on.

Damnnnnnnnnnnnn, octgal, you go girl

 

[pilot fish]

Which is why i said in my original post if it was a course there is a duty of care. If it isnt a course there should be no duty of care. I stand by that comment.



From what it seems both sides were wrong. Yes instructor failed in his duties BUT this wasnt a basic course - its a course for already certified divers who by the entry criteria are supposed to be competent in at least basic skills and ability. These basic skills include buddy awareness and being able to manage an ascent. The poster in this case did NOT posess those basic skills his certification said he should have had. Both sides have blame. The poster is far from blameless. The first rule of rescue is dont create any more casualties. If someone fully inflates their BC at depth there is very little an instructor can do to save the situation, chasing after someone at high speed is NOT the safe or recommended option from that sort of depth. Yes you try to make a grab but it doesnt take long for someone to do a rocket impression with a full BC from depth. Thats why in basic open water courses the depths are shallow - less risk from panic and generally problems can be dealt with without endangering others. On a more advanced course a student is assumed to have at least basic competence themselves to avoid creating a danger to others. Here it seems the student didnt.

FWIW the few dives spread over such a huge time means in my view the instructor should have demanded at least a check out dive or a refresher before allowing him on the course (assuming he was truthful about the number of dives and time scale). On the opposite side of the coin, the student himself should have realised that he didnt have the current dive experience to do that dive and should not have relied blindly on an instructor to get him out of trouble.

We're only getting one side of a story here but even from that its clear neither side is blameless.

String, call in the Welsh bowmen and let it rest.

 

[String]

sorry didn't read your other post, or if i did it was a day or two ago as this thread is so If i were his instructor, i would have had a long conversation before the dive to find out exactly what his concerns were with depth, talk about his past expierence and most important, go down nice and SLOW always asking if he was OK, and looking for signs of stress.

We dont know that he didnt do that. We also dont know how truthful the original poster is about mentioning experience. "Ive got 25 dives logged" is one thing. If theyre all in the last few months then fine for that dive - its not exactly a top level challenging one. However if he said "25 dives spread over 10 years" that puts a whole new perspective on it. We have no idea what was and wasnt said or by what party.

Too bad his instructor doesn't post at this site.

If i was the instructor even if i did see this post it'd be best not to respond. Accusations and one persons word against another which would just degenerate into a public slanging match. Silence is the best option. If the poster believe the instructor was negligent there are official channels with the agency to complain through that would get more of a response and more of a "fair trial". A public forum rarely manages to mash out the truth between 2 parties all stating their opinion.

 

[TheRedHead]

Yes instructor failed in his duties BUT this wasnt a basic course - its a course for already certified divers who by the entry criteria are supposed to be competent in at least basic skills and ability. These basic skills include buddy awareness and being able to manage an ascent. The poster in this case did NOT posess those basic skills his certification said he should have had. Both sides have blame.

This is ridiculous. The poster panicked and bolted, succombing to the fight or flight response. That's what happens when divers panic and can't overcome it. It doesn't say anything about their basic OW skills. Even very experienced divers panic and bolt.

My OW instructor was a tech diver who walked around with a T-Shirt which said, "At 200 feet no one can hear you scream." He pounded panic and how to avoid it into our heads.

The poster freely admitted he/she panicked. Why can't anyone stay on topic and talk about panic and suggest ways to deal with it before it blossoms into a full-fledged bolt to the surface?

 

[String]

Quite simply because in this thread the poster and others have tried to place the blame on the instructor. You are expected to have a minimum basic open water skill, self control and the knowledge of the risks. Yes people panic and bolt, it should not happen on that sort of dive but if it does people need to realise if it happens to them there is nobody else to blame BUT themselves. Accept the risk and move on, stop looking for scapegoats.

As for ways of dealing with it, getting "dived up". Get the progressive build up of dives and experience, practice drills often and generally, dive more. Its the simplest way. Know your limits honestly and dont take huge leaps over them. Self responsibility. If a dive isnt for you then dont do it yet, build up to it.

 

[HowardE]

Really... It simply sounds like the poster didn't know their own limits, and exceeded them. They stated that they had about 25 dives over a few years. That's not a lot of diving. I always thought rule #1 was know your limits and dive within them.

 

[TheRedHead]

Quite simply because in this thread the poster and others have tried to place the blame on the instructor. You are expected to have a minimum basic open water skill, self control and the knowledge of the risks. Yes people panic and bolt, it should not happen on that sort of dive but if it does people need to realise if it happens to them there is nobody else to blame BUT themselves. Accept the risk and move on, stop looking for scapegoats.

As for ways of dealing with it, getting "dived up". Get the progressive build up of dives and experience, practice drills often and generally, dive more. Its the simplest way. Know your limits honestly and dont take huge leaps over them. Self responsibility. If a dive isnt for you then dont do it yet, build up to it.

Yes, but I think a lot posters do try to blame something other than themselves. When I read this thread I just ignored the blame thinking that it is human nature (the poster made some mistakes, but also felt abandoned). Feeling abandoned is a problem in and of itself and makes me think dependent diver. And I agree with you that the key is to dive more and stretch your comfort level in small steps.

But I think these topics often degenerate into blaming and then into a discussion of lack of skills and then into a discussion of the agency's (whichever one) lack of standards. And then more back and forth with the blaming/defense, etc.

What I think happened is:

Dependent diver loses object of comfort (buddy and instructor)
Diver starts hyperventilating
Becomes dizzy and short of breath
Succombs to panic and forgets training
Heads to surface

I think the diver blamed the instructor since that was the event that triggered the panic.

To me, depersonalizing a situation is the key to seeing it clearly and learning from the experience.

 

[LJinFLA]

What I think happened is:

Dependent diver loses object of comfort (buddy and instructor)
Diver starts hyperventilating
Becomes dizzy and short of breath
Succombs to panic and forgets training
Heads to surface

I think the diver blamed the instructor since that was the event that triggered the panic.

To me, depersonalizing a situation is the key to seeing it clearly and learning from the experience.

Mama,

This is a good summary of what outwardly happened. But from what has been shared here it ought to be pretty clear that there is more here that likely contibuted to the onset of panic than a loss of one's "object of comfort".

Let's not forget that by casemanager's own statement, the Er doc that treated him at the chamber gave a considered medical opinion that he should not dive again. Most Scuba docs that man hyperbaric chambers are not in the habit of discouraging divers from diving for no good reason. Many of them are divers themselves. Why would he have made such a recommendation?

LJ

 

[RonFrank]

I dont think i will ever use this board again because you get chastised and serenated with defensive attacks when all you are trying to is figure out what went wrong.

I dont thing this is the forum for me to tell everyone about my medical history. I am sure I am not alone in this area as there are other divers who dive and take medications.

I end with one of my favorite quotes " What Does Not Destroy You, Will Strengthen You "

If you dive, medical history is key Not that this is necessarily manditory, but dude, if you have a history of things that may result in issues underwater, IMO it's MANTATORY to come clean. One thing that I don't think you see here is what a POOR BUddy you were. You ruined your buddy's dive, you have not said word ONE about your actions with how you interacted with your buddy. Dude, regardless of troubke UW, which you manufactured as there was really nothihng wrong that resulted in you r problem, you SUXS as a buddy!!!

Rather than continue to BLAME, I strongly stuggest that you review, and learn.
'

 

[bluwolf]

Casemanager, you want to see someone else under fire, do an Advanced Search of threads I started on this forum. But please don't post on it. It's a year old now, and I keep hoping it'll go away someday.

Man, you got that right! Yes, I remember that one. That was the first thread I've seen get "bloody". Truly amazed you stuck with it as long as you did. It's amazing how quickly two sides are formed and the lines are drawn.

You sure we don't want to post on it again? I'm sure there's something I haven't learned related to your experience out there somewhere.