Slick6
Contributor
scubapolly:
Speaking from personal experience with nicotine patches, they can make you jumpy and nervous as heck. I would think the effects of nicotine gum would be similar.
Spiegel Grove??
- Thread starter casemanager
- Start date
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Speaking from personal experience with nicotine patches, they can make you jumpy and nervous as heck. I would think the effects of nicotine gum would be similar.
Sideband
Guest
It was the, "Of the students that fail", that was missing. You had written, "students typically fail in the confined water portion of the course." Adding those 5 words really changes the meaning of the sentence for me.scubapolly:
I agree. While simply being able to tread water and doggy paddle comfortably will not be an issue in a quarry, out on Lake Michigan in 2 to 3 foot swells you have to be able to swim. We also mostly use this to guage a persons comfort in the water.scubapolly:
Nothing wrong with that at all. Again. it was the perceived extreme failure rate in confined water that made 'extensive' sound (to me anyway) 'excessive'.scubapolly:
You can teach a person to be able to do a trust me dive under direct supervision in 15 minutes. We do the same thing with a class of students with A.D.D. every year. Once again, I think we pretty much agree and that misunderstanding early on tainted everything afterwords. That is why I included my 'I don't know you and have not seen you teach' disclaimer and the potential apology.scubapolly:
Cool.scubapolly:
Joe
Sideband
Guest
One thing that went horribly wrong was that sentence. Who was defensively attacking you with love ballads?casemanager:
Sideband:
Misspelled ballads.
casemanager:
Casemanager, perhaps you can clarify a couple of things for us. Through your various posts, you have characterized this dive as a "checkout" dive, an Advanced Wreck Dive, and now a DEEP WATER certification dive. You have also mentioned NAUI...both as 'the old book' and the 'new T/F test'. Rather than allowing us to jump to the various conclusions we have ... mostly that that this was a PADI AOW class, perhaps you could tell us exactly WHAT class you were taking, whether it was from PADI/NAUI, and whether you were doing a pre-instruction 'checkout' dive or one of the actual dives for you certification. I ask for a variety of reasons, including determining the required level of supervision by the Instructor.
OP
casemanager
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naui advanced class, you have to do 6 dives, 2 wreck, 2 skills, and 2 night
Casemanager states:
I got Narked. Instead of swimming or grabbing something, I paniced. I couldnt get attention of any of the divers about 5 feet below me and my buddy was no where to be seen. I felt scared for the first time in my diving experience. I've never felt so umcomfortable or scared in my life.* When I surfaced, I got back to the boat and started to experince severe chest pain, was put on 02 and they rushed to the port where EMS transported me super fast to the hospital. I then spent the next 5 hours in the chamber. I dont know what to do but I never want to feel that scary feeling of bei
- Scarry... That is one horrible feeling, all (or most all) of us have had that "oh my god" feeling underwater before.. not cool! However those of us who have had that feeling and survived it have learned that the truly important thing is "what you do" with that feeling, do you give in to it, or do you manage it. That feeling of helplessness and not knowing what will happen are VERY NOT FUN! I, as well as everyone here I am sure, can sympathize with you, and feel terrible that you felt that way. I for one know that I certainly never want to feel that way.
And when we make these post, we should try to put ourselves in those shoes while we're writing, it will certainly color our posting.
MEDICATIONS INVOLVED
Casemanager states:
I had taken the patch for motion and wonder if that played a role in me experiencing vertigo big time.
- I don't know the spacific medication you were taking*but I've used them before and know many people who have and continue to use them. This is what DAN has this to say about motion sickness medications. It's a long read:
MEDICATIONS
The use of medications to prevent motion sickness may be helpful, but none of the medications are free of side effects. As most of the side effects affect performance, there are serious questions concerning their use by divers - who must be alert at all times. You must be cautious in their use, and your best plan is to avoid them entirely. If you choose a medication, give it a trial many days before diving in order to determine the response and side effects for you.
Antihistamine
The most commonly used medications are antihistamines, available without a prescription, and similar in their side effect profile.* The common feature of this group is drowsiness, which could seriously impair a diver's ability to perform safely. There are other side effects - you should study all the information which comes with the medication before using it.
*The drug may impair your mental and physical abilities required to perform potentially hazardous tasks. Alcohol and similar drugs accentuate the sedative effects
Other Medications
Trans-Derm SCOP® (scopolamine patch) is used for motion sickness and has been used by many divers who found it beneficial and reported few problems. Trans-Derm Scop does have some unwanted side effects which affect diving adversely.
Dry mouth occurs in about half of the users studied (non-divers) and is probably more prevalent in divers due to the dry air in scuba cylinders. Blurred vision after about 24 hours' use is common and may persist after the patch is removed. Repeated applications will cause visual disturbance to increase. If your finger contacts the medication side of the patch and then your eye, the pupil will dilate. Wash your hands thoroughly after handling the patch.
Trans-Derm SCOP® occasionally causes hallucinations, confusion, agitation or disorientation. These effects are more common in children and the elderly. Therefore, children under 10 should not use the patch. The dose is fixed and cannot be altered by cutting the patch, which also disrupts the rate-limiting membrane delivering the medication. The package insert contains the following precautions: "Since drowsiness, disorientation and confusion may occur with the use of scopolamine, be careful when engaging in activities that require mental alertness, such as driving a motor vehicle or operating dangerous machinery, especially when you first start using the drug system." Studies indicate that the patch is slightly more effective than Dramamine®.
Dilantin® (phenytoin) has been shown to protect against motion sickness in several studies. However, the medication is an antiepileptic drug and has not been approved for use in the treatment of motion sickness. It is a fairly safe drug, but not free of side effects and adverse reactions. There has been one study on divers in chamber tests at 460 kilopascals (approximately 150 feet/ 46 meters of seawater) which did not reveal any change in susceptibility to nitrogen narcosis.
- Hopefully you made yourself aware of the potential risks & limitations associated with the use of your perticular drug of choice.I also hope that you disclosed this use to your instructo
Casemanager states:
Wheher I was chewing nic gum which is an over the counter alternative to smoking, are you now an expert on the effects of nicotine and scubadiving?, really doesnt make a difference as other people were smoking cigarettes on the boat.
- I would take it by this statement YOU WERE chewing nic gum. The rest of your statement is very imature and foolish. I can buy whiskey "over the counter", sleeping tablets "over the counter" and NO ONE has to be an expert to understand the adverse effects of these things. Of course you DO already know this the only thing left is to LET yourself believe it and not TRY to convince yourself otherwise. You know as a smoker that nicotine increases the heartrate and chewing the gum you know does it too, you've chewed the gum so you've felt that jittery feeling. There is no one who's chewed the gum that hasn't felt it, at least to some extent however minor or significant. Even though you did this, does it mean your an idiot NO, it means you were uninformed or that you felt you could cope with it either way, your bad, the truth be told had everything gone well it probably would not have been and issue, but this probably had some effect, and helped push you over the edge of feeling uneasy into panic.Take this as a learning experience don't try to nullify the foolishness of it by comparing it to the other stupid things*others were doing. It doesn't make either of you right.*If the other people on the boat were dropping hit's of acid and smoking crack, would that make it ok for you to take shots of taquila? You already know the answer, don't you.
Casemanager states:
We went to 91 feet and were going along the side of the starboard, after about 10 minutes, I was taking my advanced wreck dive using nitrox when this occured. The current was not bad but visibility was 10-12. Ive been diving for 6 years and have logged about 25 dives but I mostly did in the Carribean. I was doing my first checkout dive for advanced certification. Ironically, I have dived 105 before using air in Hawaii about 1 month ago and had no problems.
We've also heard that there was 0 current in the area at the time of the dive.
- How many of those 25 dives have been done in the past 6 months or so? What was it that got you interested in advanced environments? Did your instructor know you? Did you know him? Did they do any type of assesment as to your readiness for an advanced course?
Casemanager states:
I inflated my BC and rose too fast. I tired to stop at 20' for about 1.30 minutes but felt that i needed to surface.
- You already know that inflating your BC at depth is a bad thing, so why rehash that. I'm curious though did you actually get stopped at 20' and wait 1:30min or did you just "try" to stop? I get the impression that you "did" stop for 1:30min. What EAN mix were you using?
Down about or less then 15min (I assume), ascend to 20' (albeit rapidly. BTW how fast does your computer say you ascended from 90' - 20'?) stop for 1:30min.. Then ascend, how fast did you go from 20' - 0'?. You were apparently still freeked so I would guess you did not observe ANY ascent rate recommendations but that is an assumption. Even with all that, I wonder if the chest pain's were not due more to nerves, elevated heartrate, and paranoia more then being bent. I imagine your heart was beating like a big ol' drum underwater?*I would not question that the prudent thing to do is to "assume" DCS and go to the chamber but on the other hand, "bent" hmmmm I wonder?
I got Narked. Instead of swimming or grabbing something, I paniced. I couldnt get attention of any of the divers about 5 feet below me and my buddy was no where to be seen. I felt scared for the first time in my diving experience. I've never felt so umcomfortable or scared in my life.* When I surfaced, I got back to the boat and started to experince severe chest pain, was put on 02 and they rushed to the port where EMS transported me super fast to the hospital. I then spent the next 5 hours in the chamber. I dont know what to do but I never want to feel that scary feeling of bei
- Scarry... That is one horrible feeling, all (or most all) of us have had that "oh my god" feeling underwater before.. not cool! However those of us who have had that feeling and survived it have learned that the truly important thing is "what you do" with that feeling, do you give in to it, or do you manage it. That feeling of helplessness and not knowing what will happen are VERY NOT FUN! I, as well as everyone here I am sure, can sympathize with you, and feel terrible that you felt that way. I for one know that I certainly never want to feel that way.
And when we make these post, we should try to put ourselves in those shoes while we're writing, it will certainly color our posting.
MEDICATIONS INVOLVED
Casemanager states:
I had taken the patch for motion and wonder if that played a role in me experiencing vertigo big time.
- I don't know the spacific medication you were taking*but I've used them before and know many people who have and continue to use them. This is what DAN has this to say about motion sickness medications. It's a long read:
MEDICATIONS
The use of medications to prevent motion sickness may be helpful, but none of the medications are free of side effects. As most of the side effects affect performance, there are serious questions concerning their use by divers - who must be alert at all times. You must be cautious in their use, and your best plan is to avoid them entirely. If you choose a medication, give it a trial many days before diving in order to determine the response and side effects for you.
Antihistamine
The most commonly used medications are antihistamines, available without a prescription, and similar in their side effect profile.* The common feature of this group is drowsiness, which could seriously impair a diver's ability to perform safely. There are other side effects - you should study all the information which comes with the medication before using it.
*The drug may impair your mental and physical abilities required to perform potentially hazardous tasks. Alcohol and similar drugs accentuate the sedative effects
Other Medications
Trans-Derm SCOP® (scopolamine patch) is used for motion sickness and has been used by many divers who found it beneficial and reported few problems. Trans-Derm Scop does have some unwanted side effects which affect diving adversely.
Dry mouth occurs in about half of the users studied (non-divers) and is probably more prevalent in divers due to the dry air in scuba cylinders. Blurred vision after about 24 hours' use is common and may persist after the patch is removed. Repeated applications will cause visual disturbance to increase. If your finger contacts the medication side of the patch and then your eye, the pupil will dilate. Wash your hands thoroughly after handling the patch.
Trans-Derm SCOP® occasionally causes hallucinations, confusion, agitation or disorientation. These effects are more common in children and the elderly. Therefore, children under 10 should not use the patch. The dose is fixed and cannot be altered by cutting the patch, which also disrupts the rate-limiting membrane delivering the medication. The package insert contains the following precautions: "Since drowsiness, disorientation and confusion may occur with the use of scopolamine, be careful when engaging in activities that require mental alertness, such as driving a motor vehicle or operating dangerous machinery, especially when you first start using the drug system." Studies indicate that the patch is slightly more effective than Dramamine®.
Dilantin® (phenytoin) has been shown to protect against motion sickness in several studies. However, the medication is an antiepileptic drug and has not been approved for use in the treatment of motion sickness. It is a fairly safe drug, but not free of side effects and adverse reactions. There has been one study on divers in chamber tests at 460 kilopascals (approximately 150 feet/ 46 meters of seawater) which did not reveal any change in susceptibility to nitrogen narcosis.
- Hopefully you made yourself aware of the potential risks & limitations associated with the use of your perticular drug of choice.I also hope that you disclosed this use to your instructo
Casemanager states:
Wheher I was chewing nic gum which is an over the counter alternative to smoking, are you now an expert on the effects of nicotine and scubadiving?, really doesnt make a difference as other people were smoking cigarettes on the boat.
- I would take it by this statement YOU WERE chewing nic gum. The rest of your statement is very imature and foolish. I can buy whiskey "over the counter", sleeping tablets "over the counter" and NO ONE has to be an expert to understand the adverse effects of these things. Of course you DO already know this the only thing left is to LET yourself believe it and not TRY to convince yourself otherwise. You know as a smoker that nicotine increases the heartrate and chewing the gum you know does it too, you've chewed the gum so you've felt that jittery feeling. There is no one who's chewed the gum that hasn't felt it, at least to some extent however minor or significant. Even though you did this, does it mean your an idiot NO, it means you were uninformed or that you felt you could cope with it either way, your bad, the truth be told had everything gone well it probably would not have been and issue, but this probably had some effect, and helped push you over the edge of feeling uneasy into panic.Take this as a learning experience don't try to nullify the foolishness of it by comparing it to the other stupid things*others were doing. It doesn't make either of you right.*If the other people on the boat were dropping hit's of acid and smoking crack, would that make it ok for you to take shots of taquila? You already know the answer, don't you.
Casemanager states:
We went to 91 feet and were going along the side of the starboard, after about 10 minutes, I was taking my advanced wreck dive using nitrox when this occured. The current was not bad but visibility was 10-12. Ive been diving for 6 years and have logged about 25 dives but I mostly did in the Carribean. I was doing my first checkout dive for advanced certification. Ironically, I have dived 105 before using air in Hawaii about 1 month ago and had no problems.
We've also heard that there was 0 current in the area at the time of the dive.
- How many of those 25 dives have been done in the past 6 months or so? What was it that got you interested in advanced environments? Did your instructor know you? Did you know him? Did they do any type of assesment as to your readiness for an advanced course?
Casemanager states:
I inflated my BC and rose too fast. I tired to stop at 20' for about 1.30 minutes but felt that i needed to surface.
- You already know that inflating your BC at depth is a bad thing, so why rehash that. I'm curious though did you actually get stopped at 20' and wait 1:30min or did you just "try" to stop? I get the impression that you "did" stop for 1:30min. What EAN mix were you using?
Down about or less then 15min (I assume), ascend to 20' (albeit rapidly. BTW how fast does your computer say you ascended from 90' - 20'?) stop for 1:30min.. Then ascend, how fast did you go from 20' - 0'?. You were apparently still freeked so I would guess you did not observe ANY ascent rate recommendations but that is an assumption. Even with all that, I wonder if the chest pain's were not due more to nerves, elevated heartrate, and paranoia more then being bent. I imagine your heart was beating like a big ol' drum underwater?*I would not question that the prudent thing to do is to "assume" DCS and go to the chamber but on the other hand, "bent" hmmmm I wonder?
MY PERSONAL OPINION
As someone in this tread has already stated. Ultimately as divers we are responsible for ourselves. We as divers need to be in a constant state of personal accessment. Trying to access wheater we are competently skilled and comfortable to dive the environment we are attempting. If we die it doesn't really matter who else is to blame, the only one's who will care are those we leave behind, we will not care, as we are,,, of course.....DEAD!
It is extreemly important that before we go seeking to venture into different and more advanced environments that we master the skills and become comfrotabe in the environments we are used to first. Divers who learn the basic skill of diving from a professional are in a proper position to gain this experience safely. New divers that go to new environments without the proper trainng really have little, no, or incomplete information as to the dangers involved with these environments and therefore place themselves at great risk. Unfortunaltly by being unaware of the dangers and safety considerations they have no idea that they are violating them and all to often this unfortunatly leads to injury or death. Even with the proper training though there is no substitute for time in the water in building the set of skills that create the proper foundation on which to build. To get used to and comfortable with the demands of a dive requires repeated exposure to those demands. Once we've gained the proper exposure to and comfort with the skill required to dive the shallow reefs in the 40' - 60' zone we can then seek training that will build upon those skills already developed. By honing the techniques and progressively expanding the type of dives*we can comfortaby undertake a diver will slowly expand their experience. Experience is the only way to build the skills and awareness that creates a good diver.
There are a few things that I wonder about in this instance. I wonder why someone would take a diver out on the deep portion of an advanced class*as their FIRST dive in this class, without knowing first the divers bouyancy and team skills, secondly their comfort level in the water and also knowing that the diver can perform all the required emergency skills associated with the upcomeing envirionment. To say nothing of not knowing this divers personal gas requirements*for a dive in the 100' range.*It is my opinion and practice to never take a student into an environment they are not prepared for. We will do the navigational and night portions of the dive first so that*I know the diver first can navigate and that they display *the proper team, bouyancy and awareness skills required for that and more demanding dives. We will also make sure that the diver is familier with and comfortabley manages the various emergency skill's that the deeper dives require. We do this BEFORE we do the deep dive portions. IMHO you do not need to take a diver into deep water to FIND OUT if they are ready for it.. You take them to deep water BECAUSE you know they are ready for it.
And then when you do take them to that environment you do have an obligation to make certain that you provide the duty of care appropriate for that student. If the student does not display the proper mindset, skills (such as personal and team awareness) it is your job to get them out of the water whether the student likes it or not, they have paid you to make sure that you teach them the proper skills of this dive and keep them safe while doing so. There should be no time during the first excursions in a new environment where the student is out of immediate contact with either an instructor or a qualified dive professional. The S & P's vary from agency to agency but what make good instructors is that they know when to exceed the standards.
Something else that bothers me about this incident is that Casemanager states that "I Dont Know If I Was Narced Because People Say You Feel Good, I Felt Extreme Vertigo And Panic," and further "I am not aware of the exact physiological events that can happen and what to do when they occurred. Again after the accident, I was told I should of grabbed onto something, closed my eyes and tried to slow my breathing." and then something else that is intreging "* I wish I had learned that in the advanced NAUI class." Am I to assume that you had "also" taken a NAUI Adv. Diver Course? How could anyone go thru an Advanced OW course and not be aware what the signs of narcosis are? Though vertigo is not commonly associated with narcosis, panic most certainly is as well as euphoria but in the colder water panic is far more common then*an unnatural level of*comfort! I also wonder how Casemanager could get through the classroom without having some understanding of the "physiological events that can happen".* All of these things are very basic things that should have been talked about extensively BEFORE ever going in the water. Perhaps Casemanager was just to distracted on the surface to hear these things discussed but gave the appearence of listening. But if infact this things were not discussed the instructor should probably reconcider the way this class is structured. I have some concern also as to why the DM or instructor didn't come to the surface when it was discovered that Casemanager was missing underwater? If what Casemanager has said is true "He didnt even realized I had surfaced until he came up." then either the DM assigned to Casemanager or the Instructor himself/herself really need to develop better control skills before teaching this type of class again. Yes loose instruction is ok "when everything goes right" but when things "go wrong" and a student is in a new and advanced environment bad things can happen, and they have paid us to train them in a safe fashion. We have a responsablity as an Instructor/Dm to personify and demonstrate "superior" control techniques, team management skills and emergency preparedness. Yes things can happen but a good Instructor/DM see's them BEFORE they happen and take appropriate measures to prevent a bad situation from escalating. The other diver on the boat at the time said "I heard lots of Tank Banging. When I looked his buddy was there. I saw them both hanging on a cutout on the port side. They were three decks above me." I would think that the Instructor/Dm should have initiated physical contact and 1 on 1 communication at this point. "tank banging" from who knows where, students "hanging on a cutout" just doesn't sound like good mojo. Checking in on them would have been appropriate.
Too many instructors seem to fall victem to the S & P's of the dive industry, believing that the industry has every divers best interest at heart. IMHO this is not the case. Big business has but one goal 'get people to dive' while this does mean that they have some interest in the divers well being, it does not mean that they have their 'best interest' in mind. The agency's want the divers to feel good about themselves and their sport, while this is important to keep the dive industry alive, it may not be in the best way to keep the students alive. The dive industrys focus has been to give people exactly what they want and that is to get diving as quickly as possible with as little training as possible. Too many times, those of us who only run the extended versions of open water course's, will hear people say that they just cannot devote 4 weeks to a program. Or we'll hear that "wow, that's alot of money". All too often these same people find a cheaper, more abreviated course and then 2 months later decide to never dive again, or they will continue in their diving careers being dependent on Instructors/DM's to hold their hand and dive for them. Essentially being nothing more than*a 'swimming sling bottle' for the leaders. It is my belief that the instructors, being the ones on the front lines with 'our reputations' at stake need to be the standard setters. We would never wish to detract from, but certainly we are morally obligated to add to the standards when we do see a deficiency.
As someone in this tread has already stated. Ultimately as divers we are responsible for ourselves. We as divers need to be in a constant state of personal accessment. Trying to access wheater we are competently skilled and comfortable to dive the environment we are attempting. If we die it doesn't really matter who else is to blame, the only one's who will care are those we leave behind, we will not care, as we are,,, of course.....DEAD!
It is extreemly important that before we go seeking to venture into different and more advanced environments that we master the skills and become comfrotabe in the environments we are used to first. Divers who learn the basic skill of diving from a professional are in a proper position to gain this experience safely. New divers that go to new environments without the proper trainng really have little, no, or incomplete information as to the dangers involved with these environments and therefore place themselves at great risk. Unfortunaltly by being unaware of the dangers and safety considerations they have no idea that they are violating them and all to often this unfortunatly leads to injury or death. Even with the proper training though there is no substitute for time in the water in building the set of skills that create the proper foundation on which to build. To get used to and comfortable with the demands of a dive requires repeated exposure to those demands. Once we've gained the proper exposure to and comfort with the skill required to dive the shallow reefs in the 40' - 60' zone we can then seek training that will build upon those skills already developed. By honing the techniques and progressively expanding the type of dives*we can comfortaby undertake a diver will slowly expand their experience. Experience is the only way to build the skills and awareness that creates a good diver.
There are a few things that I wonder about in this instance. I wonder why someone would take a diver out on the deep portion of an advanced class*as their FIRST dive in this class, without knowing first the divers bouyancy and team skills, secondly their comfort level in the water and also knowing that the diver can perform all the required emergency skills associated with the upcomeing envirionment. To say nothing of not knowing this divers personal gas requirements*for a dive in the 100' range.*It is my opinion and practice to never take a student into an environment they are not prepared for. We will do the navigational and night portions of the dive first so that*I know the diver first can navigate and that they display *the proper team, bouyancy and awareness skills required for that and more demanding dives. We will also make sure that the diver is familier with and comfortabley manages the various emergency skill's that the deeper dives require. We do this BEFORE we do the deep dive portions. IMHO you do not need to take a diver into deep water to FIND OUT if they are ready for it.. You take them to deep water BECAUSE you know they are ready for it.
And then when you do take them to that environment you do have an obligation to make certain that you provide the duty of care appropriate for that student. If the student does not display the proper mindset, skills (such as personal and team awareness) it is your job to get them out of the water whether the student likes it or not, they have paid you to make sure that you teach them the proper skills of this dive and keep them safe while doing so. There should be no time during the first excursions in a new environment where the student is out of immediate contact with either an instructor or a qualified dive professional. The S & P's vary from agency to agency but what make good instructors is that they know when to exceed the standards.
Something else that bothers me about this incident is that Casemanager states that "I Dont Know If I Was Narced Because People Say You Feel Good, I Felt Extreme Vertigo And Panic," and further "I am not aware of the exact physiological events that can happen and what to do when they occurred. Again after the accident, I was told I should of grabbed onto something, closed my eyes and tried to slow my breathing." and then something else that is intreging "* I wish I had learned that in the advanced NAUI class." Am I to assume that you had "also" taken a NAUI Adv. Diver Course? How could anyone go thru an Advanced OW course and not be aware what the signs of narcosis are? Though vertigo is not commonly associated with narcosis, panic most certainly is as well as euphoria but in the colder water panic is far more common then*an unnatural level of*comfort! I also wonder how Casemanager could get through the classroom without having some understanding of the "physiological events that can happen".* All of these things are very basic things that should have been talked about extensively BEFORE ever going in the water. Perhaps Casemanager was just to distracted on the surface to hear these things discussed but gave the appearence of listening. But if infact this things were not discussed the instructor should probably reconcider the way this class is structured. I have some concern also as to why the DM or instructor didn't come to the surface when it was discovered that Casemanager was missing underwater? If what Casemanager has said is true "He didnt even realized I had surfaced until he came up." then either the DM assigned to Casemanager or the Instructor himself/herself really need to develop better control skills before teaching this type of class again. Yes loose instruction is ok "when everything goes right" but when things "go wrong" and a student is in a new and advanced environment bad things can happen, and they have paid us to train them in a safe fashion. We have a responsablity as an Instructor/Dm to personify and demonstrate "superior" control techniques, team management skills and emergency preparedness. Yes things can happen but a good Instructor/DM see's them BEFORE they happen and take appropriate measures to prevent a bad situation from escalating. The other diver on the boat at the time said "I heard lots of Tank Banging. When I looked his buddy was there. I saw them both hanging on a cutout on the port side. They were three decks above me." I would think that the Instructor/Dm should have initiated physical contact and 1 on 1 communication at this point. "tank banging" from who knows where, students "hanging on a cutout" just doesn't sound like good mojo. Checking in on them would have been appropriate.
Too many instructors seem to fall victem to the S & P's of the dive industry, believing that the industry has every divers best interest at heart. IMHO this is not the case. Big business has but one goal 'get people to dive' while this does mean that they have some interest in the divers well being, it does not mean that they have their 'best interest' in mind. The agency's want the divers to feel good about themselves and their sport, while this is important to keep the dive industry alive, it may not be in the best way to keep the students alive. The dive industrys focus has been to give people exactly what they want and that is to get diving as quickly as possible with as little training as possible. Too many times, those of us who only run the extended versions of open water course's, will hear people say that they just cannot devote 4 weeks to a program. Or we'll hear that "wow, that's alot of money". All too often these same people find a cheaper, more abreviated course and then 2 months later decide to never dive again, or they will continue in their diving careers being dependent on Instructors/DM's to hold their hand and dive for them. Essentially being nothing more than*a 'swimming sling bottle' for the leaders. It is my belief that the instructors, being the ones on the front lines with 'our reputations' at stake need to be the standard setters. We would never wish to detract from, but certainly we are morally obligated to add to the standards when we do see a deficiency.
Hammerhead
Contributor
sounds like a load of ballads to me.:05:
Larry
Larry
casemanager:
Just so you are aware...from the NAUI website.....As part of your certification, you will complete a minimum of six open water dives including three separate dives for navigation, night or low visibility diving and deep diving (130 feet/40 meters maximum depth), plus three different dives. Some of the many different dives you can do include:
Search and recovery
Boat diving
Light salvage
Hunting and collecting
Exploration and underwater mapping
Wreck diving (non-penetration)
Observation and data collection
Diving in surf or currents
Altitude diving
Salt water diving (in areas where most diving is in fresh water)
Fresh water diving (in areas where most diving is in salt water)
Shore diving
Diving for photos or video
Using dive computers
I am really wondering what is going on here.....
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