Spiegel Grove??

[LJinFLA]

Wayne,

Great posts overall. You hit most everything and gave very good advice and asked very good questions.

In General, however, i would caution about making assumptions about what the instuctor did, and did not do. First the instructor was the only professional working the class. As I had mentioned earlier, the rest were on vacation. I am sure that the other people in the water would have of course reacted if they knew but not looking for it and not charged with oversight of the class they likely were not. The intructor will not comment here, and I will not speak for him here. We should all try to not speak for the class quality and what was done or not done. Casemanager can share his experience in the class, which is appropriate, but he needs to clarify the facts of the course. Even then it is only one side of the story.

Second have you ever been on Spiegel Grove? It is huge (530'+/- and 85' wide +/-) with many swim throughs and many exposed decks. Its a lot of ground to cover. you stated:

MY PERSONAL OPINION
The other diver on the boat at the time said "I heard lots of Tank Banging. When I looked his buddy was there. I saw them both hanging on a cutout on the port side. They were three decks above me." I would think that the Instructor/Dm should have initiated physical contact and 1 on 1 communication at this point. "tank banging" from who knows where, students "hanging on a cutout" just doesn't sound like good mojo. Checking in on them would have been appropriate.

To my knowledge this instructor did not hear the banging nor did the DM who was right next to me. We were three decks away From Casemanager and his buddy when i heard the banging and my buddy and I didn't agree on hearing tank banging. a couple of other divers thought they heard it too but not many. I did say earlier that I have been playing what if in my head about not swimming up to them to validate whether it was them that was banging and to see what was wrong. However, I did observe them for some time and they looked fine. Understand that their pair, and my pair were were over the side of the main superstructure deck descending on the PORT side of the vessel. This side of the vessel has dozens of cutouts that allow one to look in and some that allow you to enter. Thus we were all hanging onto cutouts as we took photos or just looked around. It was not unusual to see them hanging on a cutout together. It looked like exactly what I and my buddy were doing.

You know as I relive this in my head whle typing this something occurs to me. My buddy and I descended the rope right behind these guys. We hit the deck of the supestructure at about the same time. We swam around the bridge deck for a few minutes and they were nearby. Then I and my buddy headed over the port side of the ship to do some observing in the swimouts. These guys were by our side as we went over the side and they were nearby as we went down. This is where they departed the instructor. Casemanager has stated that he was with his divemaster and has sort of used the Dive master and instructor terms interchangably in this thread. My buddy was the one and only divemaster on the boat and as I mentioned he was on vacation!!! CaseManager, did you guys follow us thinking that this divemaster was your comfortzone or that he was working the course? This is possibly what took them away from the instructor far enough that he would not have heard banging nor been in a position to see the rocket ascent to the surface. The dive master was not working the class and didn't observe any of this to my knowledge.

Casemanager, Were you following us thining we were the instructor or part of the course?

LJ

 

[Sideband]

naui advanced class, you have to do 6 dives, 2 wreck, 2 skills, and 2 night

That isn't even close to the requirements.
1 night dive
1 deep dive
1 navigation dive
and 3 elective dives.

Joe

 

[2Tours N Iraq`]

I want to expand on Sideband's post just a little. NAUI offers its students several classes in order to appeal to what the diver wants to do. The obvious reason is for business, more options = more students = more revenues; however, I feel that by providing their students with several options NAUI lets the student control where they want to focus their studies. Colleges offer several degree programs because we don't all share the same interests. It only makes sense to offer various electives for the same reason.

 

[*Floater*]

That isn't even close to the requirements.
1 night dive
1 deep dive
1 navigation dive
and 3 elective dives.

Joe

I think NAUI is very flexible. I personally like them a lot so I searched for a NAUI instructor for my girlfriend to take her AOW/Nitrox combo with on our next vacation. Here's what I was offered (including 3 tanks of nitrox):

The course will cover the following dives for a total of 9 dives:

1. Deep and Deep Decompression Dive
2. Night dive (2 dives)
3. Compass and natural navigation
4. Current Diving
5. Multilevel diving
6. Nitrox
7. Basic rescue

It was a bit more than I was looking for, but I was very impressed when comparing it to my own PADI AOW, and the value was excellent, so I said okay. The electives (when offered) often turn out to be bull**** anyway, though I've heard of good experiences as well.

 

[waynne fowler]

Wayne,

In General, however, i would caution about making assumptions about what the instuctor did, and did not do. First the instructor was the only professional working the class. Casemanager has stated that he was with his divemaster and has sort of used the Dive master and instructor terms interchangably in this thread. The intructor will not comment here, and I will not speak for him here. We should all try to not speak for the class quality and what was done or not done. Casemanager can share his experience in the class, which is appropriate, but he needs to clarify the facts of the course. Even then it is only one side of the story.

Thank you for the response. While I in general agree with you, and fully agree that it would not be in the best interest of the instructor to comment in this thread, I do believe that it is very important to disect the structure of the class as this could help others of us to avoid this same situation. I do not believe that this is one sided by any means, however all we have is the one side therefore we must look at it from that perspective. We need to look at the things that led up to Casemanager loosing control of himself, what led to him getting outside his comfort zone.

First the instructor was the only professional working the class. As I had mentioned earlier, the rest were on vacation. I am sure that the other people in the water would have of course reacted if they knew but not looking for it and not charged with oversight of the class they likely were not.

I am a bit confused as I was understanding that there were 1 Instructor (running the class) and 3 DM's (some of which were on vacation) and was left with the impression that at least one of these were assigned to the class? However I do feel there was a real issue with control in this class. The fact that someone in the class 'expected' to be watched by these other Dm's implies that either the students weren't told who to buddy up with and what to expect on the dive, or this buddy team did not listen. I personally cannot imagine having someone with Casemanagers skill and experience level unattended by a professional at depths like this. Does that make the Instructor 'bad' not in my estimation. Just as Casemanger I don't believe is a 'bad' diver. Both should take this as an oppertunity to learn something about control 'student control' and 'self control'

have you ever been on Spiegel Grove? It is huge (530'+/- and 85' wide +/-) with many swim throughs and many exposed decks. Its a lot of ground to cover

I have not. I only know the site from discriptions from friends who have been there. For the most part it was presented as a site that is not too difficult and appropriate for the said class. However would it really make a differance? Would it really have mattered where this dive took place if the same things would have happened. In my opinion 'no' panic at 30' can be no less devistating then it is at 100' though depth does increase the potential for tragidy.

To my knowledge this instructor did not hear the banging. Understand that their pair, and my pair were were over the side of the main superstructure deck descending on the PORT side of the vessel.Then I and my buddy headed over the port side of the ship to do some observing in the swimouts. These guys were by our side as we went over the side and they were nearby as we went down. This is where they departed the instructor.

This is exactly the type of control issues that I am speaking of. Perhaps Casemanager was distracted during the dive briefing and did not know who was who, perhaps there was no real briefing givin'. Maybe the instructor talked about where they would go on the wreck, maybe he did not. Either way there certainly was some confusion on this dive from start to finish, whether it was brought on by Casemanager be overwhelmed on the surface and not listening or whether it was that the spacifics of the dive were never discussed I do not know. However I assume that Casemanagers dive buddy made no attempt to regain contact with the instructor. To me that implies he thought he was following the right person also, or maybe he just thought that they can just go anywhere they please. Either way I wonder if a proper dive briefing were givin?
I know that on a dive such as this we should talk about what the buddy teams are, what is the max depth of the dive, we will decend as a group (student & instructor & Dm's), when we reach the deck we will go this way team one will be here, team two will be here, instructors and Dm's will be here. These are but a few of the things that should be covered completely so that at any point in the dive everyone should know where everyone else is at, and if they are not then everyone else knows that something is wrong and you correct it or abort. Again I do not know that these things were not covered, it 'seems' that they were not as the instructor (according to Casemanager) did not even know he was missing until he came back to the surface.. How long might this have been?

We were three decks away From Casemanager and his buddy when i heard the banging and my buddy and I didn't agree on hearing tank banging.
I did say earlier that I have been playing what if in my head about not swimming up to them to validate whether it was them that was banging and to see what was wrong. It looked like exactly what I and my buddy were doing.

I did not mean to imply that you or your buddy had any 'obligation' in this matter. Sorry if I gave that impression. That said we all (most all) make a silent pact that we will assist when needed. We can all take a good lesson away from this. It is easy to check in on someone and help before something bad happens, it is harder to resolve a problem then it is to prevent it. Again, in saying that I am not implying you were in anyway at fault.

CaseManager, did you guys follow us thinking that this divemaster was your comfortzone or that he was working the course? This is possibly what took them away from the instructor. The dive master was not working the class and didn't observe any of this to my knowledge.

Casemanager, Were you following us thining we were the instructor or part of the course?

LJ

Again, this fall's back to control starting at the surface. Everyone in the class should have known who was who, where they were expected to be and go. That being done Casemanager and his buddy become responsible for following the predetermined dive plan. If they follow the wrong group then they need to reevaluate their team skills. Even so Casemanager should be aware enough to know that he was not following the instructor. The fact that he did not know where the instructor was is cause for him to sit back and think about how he appoaches team diving.

This is not ment to say that anyone of these individuals is a 'bad' diver or instructor. I am just trying to look at this in an unemotional manner drawing some general conclusions from what we 'think' we know from 1 persons viewpoint. I don't know why this thread has sucked me in so hard but for some reason it strikes me. Partially I think because at a fundamental level it has all the classic markings of what goes wrong on a dive when bad things happen. Someone steps in over their head, not great organization of the dive (apparently), diver gets overwhelmed and makes some bad choices underwater. The good news is that this has a reasonably good outcome in that no one dies.
The sad part is that Casemanager feel's he can't even 'take a shower' without some kind of overpowering fear. On this I am with Tek Diver Girl (Is that right?). If he really feels this way then a psyciatiric evaluation would seem in order....

Sorry for all the spelling errors.. I am alphabetically challanged.
Waynne Fowler

 

[skybird]

Okay, What is really crazy is after sitting here reading all of these posts for the past hour....i looked up the site on the wreck and I can't wait to get skilled enough to dive it !!!!!!!!!!!1 I am a wreck diver waiting to get out. My little newbie comments? My wonderful one on one dive instructor has drilled several things into my poor little brain. #1 NEVER dive beyond what you are comfortable with. If you ever feel the slight discomfort with a dive ABORT. No matter if you paid for it.....no matter if it messes up anyone elses dive... no matter if you would be embarrassed ABORT !
#2 Learn to be comfortable if you can't see anyone else in the water for the moment. You KNOW what you have learned ( we practiced and practiced emergency situations)
#3 Panic is what kills divers!!!!!!!!
#4 Know your own skill level and never dive beyond it (doesn't mean don't try new things....but when trying them be sure you are competent and if not it is MY responsibility to let the experienced diver I am with know that so I can stick with him and abort if necessary)

I have panicked several times when learning, but was quite proud that I was able to hear my instuctors voice in my brain reminding me of what to do.

Okay.....that's my contribution the the saga

 

[LJinFLA]

Wayne,

Your response is accurate with one exception. As I stated somewhere earlier, there were actually three instructors and one DM. One instructor was working the class, the rest were there on vacation.

I also agree that it is easier to go check on a potetial diver in trouble than to deal with an incident. I was more than willing to do so if it looked like something was wrong. My interpretation of what i saw after the tank banging was that one of them saw something in the swimout and wanted to get the other's attention by banging. From below and three decks separation, they just looked like they were enjoying the wreck as we were. i had no reason to suspect an emergency.

With all due respect, the rest of this is a great theoretical excercise in some good ways to run a class. Unfortunately, In what you wrote there are lot of assumptions about what was known and not known before the dive, and how a good instructor would then have run their class based on those assumptions of prior knowledge. There are further assumptions about how the instructor did handle the class. The unfortunate reality is that, as you stated, we only have one side in this story, and that is all we are ever going to have. I have attempted to add some additional facts to the situation to give us a little more to go on in trying to help casemanager, but discussion about the instructor and what he did or did not do and did or did not know is fruitless. In fact, it is probably like throwing gasoline on a fire. Speculation of this kind may lead casemanger to incorrect assumptions and decisions about this situation.

I feel very strongly that we should all avoid this kind of speculation in a situation like this. It does not help anyone. Your description of how a hypothetical instructor, with hypothetical information about a class or diver, and a hypothetical interpretation of what was going on in a diver's mind during the dive can not lead to any insights about what really happened. Casemanager needs to describe what was going on in his head prior to the dive, during the instruction, and then during the dive up to the point of the panic. He is our only hope for airing what was going on from his perspective. He needs to share this in detail and in order, starting from what was shared with the instructor prior to the dive.

Let's not send casemanager down a path of speculation that may lead to an incorrect course of action.

LJ

 

[LJinFLA]

Okay, What is really crazy is after sitting here reading all of these posts for the past hour....i looked up the site on the wreck and I can't wait to get skilled enough to dive it !!!!!!!!!!!1

Skybird, I highly recommend this dive. It is worth going out of your way for. In fact i highly recommend more than one dive on the ship if you go. You can never even scratch the surface in one dive.

LJ

 

[Ayisha]

...We will do the navigational and night portions of the dive first so that*I know the diver first can navigate and that they display *the proper team, bouyancy and awareness skills required for that and more demanding dives.

...IMHO you do not need to take a diver into deep water to FIND OUT if they are ready for it.. You take them to deep water BECAUSE you know they are ready for it.

...There should be no time during the first excursions in a new environment where the student is out of immediate contact with either an instructor or a qualified dive professional. The S & P's vary from agency to agency but what make good instructors is that they know when to exceed the standards.

...Yes loose instruction is ok "when everything goes right" but when things "go wrong" and a student is in a new and advanced environment bad things can happen, and they have paid us to train them in a safe fashion. We have a responsablity as an Instructor/Dm to personify and demonstrate "superior" control techniques, team management skills and emergency preparedness. Yes things can happen but a good Instructor/DM see's them BEFORE they happen and take appropriate measures to prevent a bad situation from escalating.

...We would never wish to detract from, but certainly we are morally obligated to add to the standards when we do see a deficiency.

Bold added.

Very well said!

...Essentially being nothing more than*a 'swimming sling bottle' for the leaders.

Never heard that term before!

 

[TheRedHead]

No one has mentioned the AOW Deep skills that are supposed to be done. I had the PADI version, but I would assume the NAUI class has skills to demonstrate narcosis. In my class (and we did the Deep dive first, Wayne), we did the skill before we did anything else. If casemanager did the skill that would indicate that his instructor had checked his state of mind.

Also, from going back through the posts, Casemanager was supposedly taking 3 types of psychotropic drugs as well as scopolamine and nicorete. I have my doubts about the entire nicorete angle. There are millions of people chewing nicorete gum at work and they aren't having episodes from it. I mean, wouldn't the class action tort lawyers be all over it and advertising on TV for people harmed by nicorete?