Spiegel Grove??

[genenaples]

Wheher I was chewing nic gum which is an over the counter alternative to smoking, are you now an expert on the effects of nicotine and scubadiving.

Just because something is is sold over the counter, does not make it safe for diving or using any time. Casemanager, would you use an over the counter cold medicine while diving? The important part of your above statement is that YOU should be an expert on the effects of Nicorette and scubadiving notLJinFl. A review of Nicorettes web site will tell you that it can cause vertigo as a side effect. You asked in your very first post for input, so I am giving input, not being critical to you. I am not a Doc but am very familiar with Nicorette. A good friend went into pulmonary failure and died from Nicorette right at my table durring a dinner party at my home last year. Subsequent investigation by me with my doctor opened my eyes to the side effects of that drug. Including high incidences of pulminary issues. Don't fool yourself, its not only nicotine contained in that gum so comparing it to people smoking butts is way off. And most likely as with most drugs prescription or otherwise nobody knows the effect of the drug on the human body under pressure. Since you said you never had panic before, you should look at what was different from this dive than your others, including any medications in your body. And after all that, it could have been just one of those days, not caused by anything in particular just as LJ said a whole bunch of things cascading to the end result. I don't think LJ is angry, I think he is right on the money.

PS: The person that passed at my home was abusing the gum, chewing way to much and far more than is recommended. I am not anti Nic gum, I am sure it works quite well when used properly. I only bring it up to illustrate that the effects of the proper dosage under pressure is not and may never be known. Thank God I don't smoke.

 

[JRScuba]

I hope everyone noticed that HE DID THANK THE CONTRIBUTORS to the thread. After all that was said he made the effort. It appears to me that not only did he admit that he caused the problem, he was just trying to find what the area of responsibility is for the cast of charactors. This way he could, in the future, take steps to dive more safely, this he did say.

Yep, there were some holes in his story. Nothing that would have really made any difference. It looks like WE learned something from this thread. That is a good thing.

Obviously new to diving and this board. This does not make him a bad person. Just someone who entered a sport that needs to learn a lot more about it.

In another thread someone said that 90% of the people that get certified never dive again. Glad to see he is going to stick with it. Have to give him ALOT of credit for doing that after the experience he just went through.

He won't leave the board. He knows that there are lots of experienced diver here with a wealth of knowledge.

IMHO

 

[Squalus]

When reviewing accidents/incidents, we need to take a moment and review the facts that are presented. Take into consideration of the source (if you heard it through a third party, I would suggest that it is posted that way), and think it through before posting. If you are posting about what happened to yourself be honest about it, if you think it should not be posted then don't, if someone has a question and it is related then discuss it through PM(honesty never hurt anyone). Keeping in mind not to finger point, not needed or warranted. Just because somebody is not diving the way you normally do, there is no need to poke fun at them for doing so (so what if they hold hands, if you ever dove in almost zero vis then you would know). There are alot of divers in here with varying degrees in experience in diving. Some are strictly warm water divers and have not experienced what cold water divers experience in the north and the same as the cold water divers. Just my .02

 

[casemanager]

The physical effects of hyperventilation can be solved nicely on the surface by rebreathing CO2 in a paper bag or other distensible sack. This is impossible at depth and hyperventilation becomes an emergency requiring a controlled assisted ascent, with the strong possibility that rescue will be needed on the surface, due to the ineffectual, inappropriate behavior caused by the focused peripheral narrowing of the panic attack.

 

[DandyDon]

I Lost Track Of What This Thread Was All About, But I Sure Was Impressed That Someone Could Type All Their Posts Like This...

I don't think I could do it. Sometimes I resort to font size but the new software is too new to some.

I end with one of my favorite quotes " What Does Not Destroy You, Will Strengthen You "

One of those feel-good statements that is actually not always true.

I think the hand holding comment was meant in a "figurative" sense.

Yep... I'd be afraid to dive with anyone who claimed to be "a great diver" on a dock or boat, but that was probly heat of the post stuff.

you know what, i'm done with this board too. Maybe he didn't mean it to me, but i simply can't be bothered anymore

safe diving people

Well there are some forums that some people shouldn't participate on, and this is certainly one of them.

Casemanager, you want to see someone else under fire, do an Advanced Search of threads I started on this forum. But please don't post on it. It's a year old now, and I keep hoping it'll go away someday.

I learned a lot from that horrible thread experience, tho, once I stopped trying to defend myself and started looking for the good suggestions - mixed in with bad ones and vendettas.

I've also had some stalkers on this board, but unseen forces seem to have helped deal with them.

 

[String]

I think the hand holding comment was meant in a "figurative" sense.

Correct

To rephrase. If you need to be baby-sat or need constant looking after.
"Holding hands" is a phrase not literally.

To save confusion, if you feel you need to be looked after or nanny'd by an instructor on a dive you should not have been certified. certification is supposed to be a recognition of competence to go out and do things on your own. If you dont feel safe or cant do that, you arent in my book qualified to dive at that level.

 

[octgal]

Yep... I'd be afraid to dive with anyone who claimed to be "a great diver" on a dock or boat, but that was probly heat of the post stuff.

I'm not too sure what you mean by that, however i am a olmypic swimmer so yes i think i can handle myself in the water. I think your above statement was soo funny, just cannot win on this board can you.

ok guys leave me out of this, i had my emotional moment and admit it, move on.

 

[octgal]

String
instructors do have a responsibility to thier students. This guy was on a course, when you take a course on something new, you are no expert on it so you rely on your instructor. The whole purpose to go to 100 feet is to do it in a controlled maner under supervision...why??? because the student may panic! and that is exactly what happened. He said the instructor was no where to be seen, thats pathetic on their part. I've had to rescue a diver once (had more dives then me by the way) and as his buddy i noticed something was wrong right away.

 

[String]

instructors do have a responsibility to thier students. This guy was on a course, when you take a course on something new, you are no expert on it so you rely on your instructor.

Which is why i said in my original post if it was a course there is a duty of care. If it isnt a course there should be no duty of care. I stand by that comment.

He said the instructor was no where to be seen, thats pathetic on their part.

From what it seems both sides were wrong. Yes instructor failed in his duties BUT this wasnt a basic course - its a course for already certified divers who by the entry criteria are supposed to be competent in at least basic skills and ability. These basic skills include buddy awareness and being able to manage an ascent. The poster in this case did NOT posess those basic skills his certification said he should have had. Both sides have blame. The poster is far from blameless. The first rule of rescue is dont create any more casualties. If someone fully inflates their BC at depth there is very little an instructor can do to save the situation, chasing after someone at high speed is NOT the safe or recommended option from that sort of depth. Yes you try to make a grab but it doesnt take long for someone to do a rocket impression with a full BC from depth. Thats why in basic open water courses the depths are shallow - less risk from panic and generally problems can be dealt with without endangering others. On a more advanced course a student is assumed to have at least basic competence themselves to avoid creating a danger to others. Here it seems the student didnt.

FWIW the few dives spread over such a huge time means in my view the instructor should have demanded at least a check out dive or a refresher before allowing him on the course (assuming he was truthful about the number of dives and time scale). On the opposite side of the coin, the student himself should have realised that he didnt have the current dive experience to do that dive and should not have relied blindly on an instructor to get him out of trouble.

We're only getting one side of a story here but even from that its clear neither side is blameless.

 

[octgal]

sorry didn't read your other post, or if i did it was a day or two ago as this thread is so long. I agree with everything you said, i wouldn't go chase anyone to the surface either. But when you panic you don't think straight, obviously what happened as inflating your BC should never be a way to go up. If i were his instructor, i would have had a long conversation before the dive to find out exactly what his concerns were with depth, talk about his past expierence and most important, go down nice and SLOW always asking if he was OK, and looking for signs of stress. Too bad his instructor doesn't post at this site.