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What's the surgeon who graduates last in his class called?
What's the surgeon who graduates last in his class called?
Spiegel Grove??
- Thread starter casemanager
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Almost afraid to ask, but - what...?TekDiveGirl:
TekDiveGirl:
Doctor.:05:
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Exactly ---
I think the thread has gone from analyzing the original mishap to analyzing the validity of the AOW rating.. Not really where I'd hoped it would go but we're here none the less. So I'll put in my 2 cents.
Sure as all OWI's know, the advanced rating simply gives one a certification not a qualification. We all know that it is grossly inadaqate in both the academic and skill's portion's of the class. Knowing this make's it important that we let our students know upfront (if we are following the course ciriculum ) that after completeing the class there is a wealth of stuff they don't know about the physic's and physiology of diving past 70' and that now that they are certified they need to get qualified by going out and getting comfortable in the water first off and then start adding depth in baby steps a little at a time, getting comfortable with that depth and it's gas requirements, building experience in the nuance's of this new environment before moving on..
The other option is to go beyond standards and give these people more information then is required by the standards. Teach them about the basic physic's and physiology of decompression, the deception of narcosis, the intracacies of gas management, team awareness etc.. it may mean that you extend the course requirements in water to include proper kicking techniques, OOA drills, ascent techniques, lift bag deployment, etc. You may have to have more strict equipment requirements, there is good sense in requireing twin tanks for dives past the 80' mark. However, these are things that only the instructor and shops can do as the agencies will not... not as long as you have people who want to live fast and furious and want to get there just as fast and furiously.
Doing things like this may mean you do get fewer students into those settings but the thing that most dive shops and instructors don't get is that this will lead to more money from the individual students as they will pay more for the class, have more money invested in the right equipment to do these dives. And have to spend more time in the water, they gotta get that tank filled somewhere. This will mean that the shops and instructors will have to deal with fewer people to earn the same amount of money. For those students that are strictly motivated by cheaper prices, well, you can't win them all they will ultimately get what they pay for.
Agencies have learned to give people what they want the way they want it. The unfortunate truth is that if you tell someone that you will require that they have 50 dives before you'll certify them to 100' they will most likely walk across the street to the guy that will do it the weekend after they complete the open water course and now you have lost total control. Aside from that we've all seen divers that have 100's of dives and for sure shouldn't even be let in a bathtub, let alone the ocean. And on the flipside we've seen students that from the 2nd pool session you know that this person is someone you want in a DM program soon. The number of dives are really a poor way to judge readyness for advanced diving. But for lack of a better way it is at least something to look at upfront. At least if you get them into the classroom with YOU, you now have some control over what they are taught and you can have an impact on what the mindset of that student is when they leave your classroom. You need to convince them that you truely know what is best for them and that you have their best interest at heart. (I'm not talking about scamming them, I mean that you truly MUST HAVE THEIR BEST INTEREST AT HEART! not just interest in their pocketbook!) They must know that YOU will teach them EVERYTHING that they need to know to go to 100'. And that NO ONE care's about them like YOU do. (Of course again this MUST be true) If they know and believe this they will pay you whatever you need to charge them to make it happen.
Just one passing thought.
How many of you were certified to dive past 60' before you ever did it... I'd venture a guess that out of every 100 ppl here at least 80 will have to say,, "I went past the 60' mark before I was certified" out of that 80 probably 70 will have broke the 80' mark and 50 of us the 100' depth. People are going to go to these depth's with or without the rating, they want the rating to feel they have license to be there, they feel that 60' ain't so bad.... 80's pretty cool... I feel quite peaceful there (they don't realize that's a bit of the anastetic effects of N2 makeing them so comfortabe... as long as things go well! ).
OMG.... what a rant!
Sorry I didn't know I could type so fast!!:icon10:
Sure as all OWI's know, the advanced rating simply gives one a certification not a qualification. We all know that it is grossly inadaqate in both the academic and skill's portion's of the class. Knowing this make's it important that we let our students know upfront (if we are following the course ciriculum ) that after completeing the class there is a wealth of stuff they don't know about the physic's and physiology of diving past 70' and that now that they are certified they need to get qualified by going out and getting comfortable in the water first off and then start adding depth in baby steps a little at a time, getting comfortable with that depth and it's gas requirements, building experience in the nuance's of this new environment before moving on..
The other option is to go beyond standards and give these people more information then is required by the standards. Teach them about the basic physic's and physiology of decompression, the deception of narcosis, the intracacies of gas management, team awareness etc.. it may mean that you extend the course requirements in water to include proper kicking techniques, OOA drills, ascent techniques, lift bag deployment, etc. You may have to have more strict equipment requirements, there is good sense in requireing twin tanks for dives past the 80' mark. However, these are things that only the instructor and shops can do as the agencies will not... not as long as you have people who want to live fast and furious and want to get there just as fast and furiously.
Doing things like this may mean you do get fewer students into those settings but the thing that most dive shops and instructors don't get is that this will lead to more money from the individual students as they will pay more for the class, have more money invested in the right equipment to do these dives. And have to spend more time in the water, they gotta get that tank filled somewhere. This will mean that the shops and instructors will have to deal with fewer people to earn the same amount of money. For those students that are strictly motivated by cheaper prices, well, you can't win them all they will ultimately get what they pay for.
Agencies have learned to give people what they want the way they want it. The unfortunate truth is that if you tell someone that you will require that they have 50 dives before you'll certify them to 100' they will most likely walk across the street to the guy that will do it the weekend after they complete the open water course and now you have lost total control. Aside from that we've all seen divers that have 100's of dives and for sure shouldn't even be let in a bathtub, let alone the ocean. And on the flipside we've seen students that from the 2nd pool session you know that this person is someone you want in a DM program soon. The number of dives are really a poor way to judge readyness for advanced diving. But for lack of a better way it is at least something to look at upfront. At least if you get them into the classroom with YOU, you now have some control over what they are taught and you can have an impact on what the mindset of that student is when they leave your classroom. You need to convince them that you truely know what is best for them and that you have their best interest at heart. (I'm not talking about scamming them, I mean that you truly MUST HAVE THEIR BEST INTEREST AT HEART! not just interest in their pocketbook!) They must know that YOU will teach them EVERYTHING that they need to know to go to 100'. And that NO ONE care's about them like YOU do. (Of course again this MUST be true) If they know and believe this they will pay you whatever you need to charge them to make it happen.
Just one passing thought.
How many of you were certified to dive past 60' before you ever did it... I'd venture a guess that out of every 100 ppl here at least 80 will have to say,, "I went past the 60' mark before I was certified" out of that 80 probably 70 will have broke the 80' mark and 50 of us the 100' depth. People are going to go to these depth's with or without the rating, they want the rating to feel they have license to be there, they feel that 60' ain't so bad.... 80's pretty cool... I feel quite peaceful there (they don't realize that's a bit of the anastetic effects of N2 makeing them so comfortabe... as long as things go well! ).
OMG.... what a rant!
Sorry I didn't know I could type so fast!!:icon10:
Sideband
Guest
I've assisted in over 75 classes and that just doesn't sit right. If students "typically fail" anything then there is something wrong with the instruction. Of course there are a few that just don't get it or are slower at getting it but if failure is the norm then whatever it is needs to be presented differently. For years our instructors taught mask clearing by first doing segregated breathing with a snorkel, then filling the mask on the surface and clearing it while standing, then clearing it just under the surface while bent over then... We found a lot of students had a hard time learning this skill. At one instructors suggestion we tried a different approach. Before they have ever had their mask on while on scuba we have them sit on the bottom and breath. The very first thing they do is spend five minutes breathing with no mask. Mask clearing is explained in the classroom and after they have been down for the five minutes we hand each of them their mask (while still down) and they put it on and clear it. Now we have maybe 1 person in each class that has trouble and I or one of the other assistants works with them 1 on 1 to see where the problem is and correct it. Since we started doing this we have only had 1 student that couldn't do it but they had other issues as well and it was mutually decided that diving was not for them. My point is, if all students seem to have a problem then the problem probably isn't with the students.scubapolly:
The standards I remember reading were 225 yards and have been reduced to 15 strokes.scubapolly:
Exceeding the standards is generally a good idea and turning out better than average beginner divers is great. Now mind you I don't know you and have never seen your class but what you write seems a bit extreme. The goal of BOW is to make them safe to continue their education both on their own and through further formal classes. I think there are generally three kinds of divers. Those that will get certified then not dive again after the vacation they have planned, those that dive a few times a year while on vacation and those that dive regularly and will continue their education. The first two groups won't retain enough from class to make the extra requirements worthwhile. The last group is going to continue to better themselves any way they can. Demanding great buoyancy or flawless execution of skills is not, imo, the purpose of BOW. Now, maybe I read more into what you wrote than you intended. If so, I apologize.
Joe
Slick6
Contributor
Sideband:
That's not gonna happen anyway. That kind of skill comes with practice.
FWIW, I have taken classes that Polly taught (not BOW,) and I wouldn't call her extreme.
OP
casemanager
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This is crazy, now someone who went diving with me, knows my whole medical history and slanders me in a public display??
How Fair is that? Maybe, you should also include my social security number, my credit card, and my mother's maiden name.
I posted on this web to learn from advanced divers like you all. I never made it to blame anyone. This was just an avenue for me to ask questions, like is the DM/instructor responsible, why did I panic, getting decompression sickness, etc.
Obviously, some person thinks this a vindictive attack, its not. Its to learn.
For all of you out there, there were 7 students including me.
I was doing my first checkout dive for advanced certification. I obvious was way over my head and realize it after the fact. Try asking the person who slandered me about the other students number of dives??
I think you will see that I was more experienced.
How Fair is that? Maybe, you should also include my social security number, my credit card, and my mother's maiden name.
I posted on this web to learn from advanced divers like you all. I never made it to blame anyone. This was just an avenue for me to ask questions, like is the DM/instructor responsible, why did I panic, getting decompression sickness, etc.
Obviously, some person thinks this a vindictive attack, its not. Its to learn.
For all of you out there, there were 7 students including me.
I was doing my first checkout dive for advanced certification. I obvious was way over my head and realize it after the fact. Try asking the person who slandered me about the other students number of dives??
I think you will see that I was more experienced.
pilot fish
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casemanager:
Case, you were NOT experienced at all. Not only should you not have been diving on that wreck but you should have been inrolled in a REFRESHER COURSE on a 30 ft reef. Did the DM & instructor know before the dive that you had only 12 dives in a 6 year period? If they did, then it's their fault. If they did not know, then it's your fault.
Do you have a histroy of panic attacks? Did you tell them that before hand? What was the ratio of instructors to students? If you were more "experienced," at 12 dives in 6 years, than the other students, I am amazed that the instructors did not pay more attention.
dkktsunami
Contributor
Is "casemanager" a real person or a hypothetical "case study" of the personality type that should never attempt diving. I notice that there is no bio. Casemanager seems to be a victim - of inadequate instructors, of non-observant dive masters, of an unskilled buddy, of a poor boat crew, and now a "slanderer".The first case to manage is one's self.
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