Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[oya]

There's an interesting word that this conversation reminds me of.

Monopsony.

 

[The Chairman]

Out of curiosity and openness, do you mind disclosing how many of the four course directors you mention that are selling their rEvos work at or are affiliated with a dive shop(s) in the keys?

of the three, two are associated with one dive shop here in the Keys, but only one of those two is a salaried employee. The third is about as independent as a person can get when it comes to specific dive shops. The fourth is tied to another shop here in the Keys that is keen on rebreathers and tech diving.

 

[JonTNY]

this is my last reply on this thread: the reason is explained below

I have answered multiple questions clearly in my previous posts, but they have gone, so I will just for the last time write it again. I will try point by point.


1 should everybody who buys a rebreather automatically be allowed to become instructor?

in my opinion, of course not, as not everybody will be a good instructor, and you can only have a limited number of instructors per area: because every manufacturer requires that an instructor does a minimum number of courses every year, so he keeps his training skills high, he dives the unit a lot under training conditions, he needs to regularly invest in the latest equipment (as an instructor should dive the latest version/electronics of the rebreather, he must be able to earn money by having enough sales and courses to make it profitable, so he (/she) can have a solid business that lasts many years.

Suppose that we did the following: every year we allow X new instructors in an area, but we still require from the previous instructors that they do 3 unit specific courses every year. the newcomers will recruit some students, friends, so they have the minimum number for that year, but the instructors of the previous year don't get the needed number... should we now fire them, because they don't have the minimum required numbers of trainings that year? Would that be a correct attitude? I would be slaughtered for this if I would do this!

So it is clear that we regulate the number of instructors, so that the really active ones can build experience, establish a good working business, so that at the end, the client gets what he needs: long term stability!

And long term customer satisfaction is what the rebreather business needs!


2 should every dive operation automatically be allowed to offer training on a specific rebreather?

Again, and for the same reasons as above, in my opinion no! Because this will be negative for the customer at the end. A manufacturer carefully chooses the operations that can promote and serve its product the best way, so that after many years, the customers still have a solid base where they can turn to.

Rebreather business is completely different from OC, 'mass market product'. Rebreather business requires a direct contact between manufacturer, trainer, service provider, local support, and customer. You can only achieve this when you limit this to a small number of players.

It’s not like selling masks and fins, where companies come and go like the wind blows. Almost like 6 months internet selling setups.

No rEvo customer would be happy if he always has to turn to another local operator who shows up, and later disappears again. Rebreathers are bought for a long term 'engagement'. and I as manufacturer have to guarantee this to my client, that he will still be taken care of after many years: so how can I do this: only by working with a limited number, well supported operators in the area where the customer lives.

Does this mean we dictate where someone should buy a unit and take a training?

No, of course not, as any customer can choose the instructor of their choice, can travel anywhere they want, and can buy a unit anywhere in the world.

3 is Jim being treated differently from other instructors? Is Jim not allowed to do something, where others are allowed?

No, clearly not, as any instructor that would have done what Jim did, would see the same things happening. (Ask any ACTIVE rEvo instructor, you will get the same answer)
this is what happened, and what no other instructor did:
- Jim had an area, where he was the only guy to advertise, sell units, approach local people. No other instructor was allowed to recruit clients, so Jim could perfectly start up a business, invest, start selling, and establish a long term good turning business. As this is what I want, and what a customer needs: a long turning relationship with a local instructor dealer, so that if, after years, you need support locally, you can still find it. This is what is important for the customer: long duration local support: that is also the business model I want to achieve. Local people with lots of experience that can help you out when you need it.
- For some reason, that local good turning business setup did not happen, or it was not what Jim was looking for, and Jim choose to move out of there, and go somewhere else.
- So Jim moves to an area where another instructor dealer has done a lot of work, has invested heavily to start a good running business, one that has a long term option. This seems to be proven, as many people are jealous of the success of that business, and want to profit from it. So Jim started a new living in that area
- then Jim starts to work for a local operator that wants to go into direct competition with the good running business, and started to actively recruit local clients. (No other instructor has done this)
I told Jim that this was not appropriate, and it was not what we agreed upon, and Jim knows this. So I told Jim he could not start to operate where he lives now, as it is not in the interest of a long duration, customer satisfaction business model.

So is Jim being treated different from any other instructor? No, clearly not, as any other instructor that would do what Jim did, would see the same consequences.


But now here we are, Jim is not happy, as he thought that I would have accepted his business move, we had lengthy discussion on this, by mail, we had personal discussion at DEMA about this, I had quite some 'group pressure' at DEMA to make me change my mind, but in the interest of long duration customer care, why would I do this?


Don’t understand me wrong, I can understand why people decide to change the direction of their professional live, they are free to do of course, but they should also accept the consequences.

Now Jim starts a campaign, using a group of friends, to work in favor of his cause, he gives them his side of the story, and of course, in diving, you don't only have friends, but also people that for some reason don't like you, or don't like a competitor of them, and then this discussion starts on a forum.

What the friends and followers don’t see yet, is that the cause has changed. Jim knows that I have to hold this position, and he knows that I will not approve him as CCR rEvo trimix instructor, so after the lengthy DEMA discussion, Jim already made up his mind he would stop training rEvo: he put his rebreather for sale.

But the evil is done, and now Jim starts to develop his ‘grudge’ against me and my company: this post on Scubaboard comes up: anything that serves the new cause, to damage the reputation of my company and myself, the reputation of hard working active rEvo instructors, is good.

None of the active rEvo instructors, that also visit north Florida for training and cave diving, have ever done anything that would harm Jim’s business in that area: not a single unit has been sold in that area through another rEvo instructor: so why is Jim accusing his fellow instructors of something that never happened?

I know, and Jim and his friends know, that this campaign is set up to harm the rEvo reputation, so to prepare for the new units he will teach in the future. (the negotiations with the manufacturers of the new units already started at DEMA, long before the thread came alive).

But it also harms those good and active rEvo instructors, the ones we fully support as they do a good job, and that is absolutely unfair!.

The worst of all, this campaign harms the customer, as it fights against a well working business model that supports customers in the long end.

It is time to say goodbye Jim, go your way, be successful in your new live, and become happy again!


Paul

Nothing Paul has said is unethical, immoral, dishonest, illegal or unreasonable. Companies all over the world use similar models with great success.

Jim and his wife are personal friends of mine and this is a tough spot but I think a few things have become clear:

1) Any human can buy a REVO from any dealer anywhere in the world?

2) That same person can train with anyone and anywhere in the world and incur all associated costs.

3) Dealers can't try and poach from someone else territory, but the custom er is free to call any dealer anywhere?

So if I buy a REVO from Melanie in Washington and want her to train me, I could spend the money to have the training take place in Malta, South Africa or Alaska if I so choose?

And if I buy that same rebreather from Melanie I could as the customer request that she send the unit to China and train with the local rep?

I don't see what the problem is?

I would STRONGLY urge all parties involved to memorialize ANY understanding so the next time people need to pick at a scab there will be a document to scrutinize.

I have bought and paid for 5 REVO's, its no secret that I'm a huge fan, all 5 were bought through Jason Fisch and all 5 were paid for out of Europe, my next 5 will be bought through Jason Fisch regardless of where I'm located.

Cheers,

JonT

 

[The Chairman]

wrong!

CCR normoxic and hypoxic is unit specific, and needs instructor approval of the manufacturer. This has been agreed by all major training agencies and manufactures years ago, and is now adopted by all of them.

Is it now? Here is an excerpt from 2013 IANTD Standards, Page 168.

A Rebreather Trimix Instructor may teach CCR Trimix on any CCR they are diver qualified on.

Have these standards changed? I have a call into IANTD to find out, but I think these are the current standards. Any IANTD instructor want to weigh in on this? Maybe you can present standards that read differently, Paul? This is why details such as this need to be spelled out. Lots of opinions how they should be interpreted, but unless we have a supersession, this gives any IANTD CCR Trimix instructor the ability to teach on any unit they are 'diver qualified on'. It is my understanding that another agency may only require familiarity with the unit. I don't have access to those standards, so I don't want to be accused of starting any rumors.

But then, Paul, what in your mind disqualifies Jim from being a competent trimix instructor on the Revo Rebreather? Is it that he disagrees with you or do you have an actual problem with his competency? Most of us in this thread would like to know.

 

[boulderjohn]

Can someone give me a sense of what constitutes a territory?

Let's say I became certified to instruct while living in Colorado. The demand for rebreathers in this state is pretty darn small, so even if this entire state were my territory, I would have a tough time making a lot of sales. If, on the other hand, I were handed the bottom third of Florida, I would probably do really, really well.

 

[SillyQuestions]

Yes or no questions Paul.

Can I buy one of your units from Jim, get training from Jim and do this training in North Florida?

Can I buy one of your units from AddHelium get training from AddHelium and do this training in Key Largo?

Can I buy one of your units from Jim, get training from Jim and do this training in North Florida?

Can I buy one of your units from Jim and get training from Jim in Key Largo?

Can I buy one of your units from AddHelium, get training from AddHelium and do this training in North Florida?




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[CptTightPants21]

Yes or no questions Paul.

Can I buy one of your units from Jim, get training from Jim and do this training in North Florida?

Can I buy one of your units from AddHelium get training from AddHelium and do this training in Key Largo?

Can I buy one of your units from Jim, get training from Jim and do this training in North Florida?

Can I buy one of your units from Jim and get training from Jim in Key Largo?

Can I buy one of your units from AddHelium, get training from AddHelium and do this training in North Florida?




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I am not Paul, but as someone who has PM'd with him and followed this thread from the beginning I can answer your questions.

1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Yes (repeat of question 1)
4. No
5. Yes

With Regards to question #4, you could buy a unit from Jim and get training from any other Revo instructor and do that training in Key Largo. Jim and the other two instructors may not teach in Key Largo---so says the Grand Exalted Imperial Poobah

 

[SillyQuestions]

So, if your answers are correct, Jim is treated differently


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[cerich]

yup, which is why I said earlier that Jim doesn't need scubaboard, he needs a lawyer. It was tongue in cheek because I can't imagine him going there....

So, if your answers are correct, Jim is treated differently


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---------- Post added November 30th, 2015 at 06:04 PM ----------

Can I buy one of your units from AddHelium get training from AddHelium and do this training in Key Largo?



Can I buy one of your units from AddHelium, get training from AddHelium and do this training in North Florida?




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why would you want to buy from a business that appears to be OK with bending the arm (collude) with a vendor, while making verbal agreements (another type of collusion) with the very person he is trying to stab in the back with the vendor.

Of course I am far from surprised regarding Add Helium considering the lies and damage they tried to do to HOG when they got miffed that I didn't throw free stuff at them.

 

[CptTightPants21]

So, if your answers are correct, Jim is treated differently


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Basically, Yes.

There is no way a rebreather manufacturer could give cave country to one person (Jim Wyatt) who owns N. Florida without pissing off, alienating, and basically screwing himself. Could you imagine if a manufacturer forced you to take cave rebreather training from 1 guy and only 1 guy? Therefore even though Jim Wyatt has N. Florida, his territory is basically open to everyone. It also appears that these "territories" are created with verbal agreements and nothing is in writing---but that is another issue entirely. With any other manufacturer (and some part of Revo), you can take your training with any instructor, any where, any time, as long as you are paying and making the arrangements. Jim started spreading his time out of N. Florida and some time in the Keys, Revo didn't like that Jim was spending more time in the Keys and declared that Jim (and the other two instructors who recently moved to the Keys) can't teach Revo in the Florida Keys--any other Revo instructor that isn't those three is free to teach there if they have a student who would like to do their training there.