Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[JonTNY]

Why is everyone comparing this egregious practice to car dealerships? There could not be a more corrupt, avaricious and anti-capitalist business model in the US. Talk about a dumb comparison. Anyone doubt me? Try open a new dealership anywhere in the USA. Hey, wait a minute...

Ahh...LOL....you couldn't be more incorrect, th business practice Paul is following was actually invented here in the USA.....and is used all over the world, I think we need Paul to explain and document what that policy is so emotional incorrect assumptions stop.

There's so much misinformation being puked up by people that haven't an accurate understanding of what policy ACTUALLY exists.

Its 9:30 here in NYC, kids go to bed.

JonT

 

[CptTightPants21]

Ahh...LOL....you couldn't be more incorrect, th business practice Paul is following was actually invented here in the USA.....and is used all over the world, I think we need Paul to explain and document what that policy is so emotional incorrect assumptions stop.

There's so much misinformation being puked up by people that haven't an accurate understanding of what policy ACTUALLY exists.

Its 9:30 here in NYC, kids go to bed.

JonT

What misinformation?

 

[Wookie]

There is so much information that is going unsaid in this thread as to make it basically meaningless. Paul will not be sharing his dealer agreements, and the training agencies will not be chiming in. There is no reason to hurt peoples feelings, but this thread has scratched barely 10% of the whole issues. Let it die. There is nothing to see here. We can't handle the truth.

 

[cerich]

or Chris with Hog and now Deep6....

Huh?

Edge/HOG was really not that revolutionary as far as distribution models went, what got dealers and other brands pissed off was my stance on equipment servicing and my activity on scubaboard..

As far as Deep 6 is concerned, I could care less what other manufs or dealers think of my business model. It is consumer based and leaves room for instructors, a very few select and excellent dive centers (demo centers) and also support non profits that want to get donations.

I'm not naive enough to think that I won't have opposition, of course I will, it already started when my suppliers started getting pressure at DEMA from other brands that my business model will "kill the industry", of course that is a little bit like blaming the bartender that dropped a full glass of water when the Titanic started to sink for the sinking...but whatever.

Basically life is simple, either my model will work and folks that play with us and Deep 6 will succeed and make money, or we wont and we'll go away.

---------- Post added November 30th, 2015 at 09:38 PM ----------

no kidding....

There is so much information that is going unsaid in this thread as to make it basically meaningless. Paul will not be sharing his dealer agreements, and the training agencies will not be chiming in. There is no reason to hurt peoples feelings, but this thread has scratched barely 10% of the whole issues. Let it die. There is nothing to see here. We can't handle the truth.

 

[Nuribromanski]

Because the CCR maker is the guy with the deepest pockets and the most exposure to liability. If you look at the current and past CCR lawsuits, the manufacturer is ALWAYS sued, regardless of cause of death.

& training agency cares for that in deciding what they teach...why?? nobody consults reg makers when setting up the OC classes, right? i get why u want ccr maker input/buyin on ur ccr training...i just dont get why u have to have it if ccr maker is being difficult. just offer training/cert on that unit based on ur own standards...like most dive certs.

 

[Wookie]

& training agency cares for that in deciding what they teach...why?? nobody consults reg makers when setting up the OC classes, right? i get why u want ccr maker input/buyin on ur ccr training...i just dont get why u have to have it if ccr maker is being difficult. just offer training/cert on that unit based on ur own standards...like most dive certs.

As has been discussed on these boards ad nauseam, the training agency isn't in the business of turning out the very best instructors in the world, the training agencies job is to turn out instructors that meet a minimum standard. Very rarely are even the crappiest of instructors censured or expelled. Lousy instructors turn out lousy students, and lousy students cut corners and cutting corners is the easiest way to die on a rebreather.

I'm not pointing at anyone in this thread, I'm explaining why the manufacturer wants a say in who teaches on their unit.

Because I run a liveaboard, I see lots and lots of divers, from the very conscientious to the lackadaisical. I see most of my divers faithfully perform their checklist every time they set up their rebreathers, but then, if anyone remembers Richard Mork, Richard was a crewmember, friend, and Meg diver. I watched Richard do his checklist every time he set his rebreather up, but the day he died while diving it, he must have felt confident enough not to, because a checklist provided by the manufacturer would have saved his life. Diving a rebreather is not like diving OC, it isn't as forgiving. An instructor has 10-15 hours to completely change your habits if you don't have good ones. Quite frankly, my wife is dead set against me getting a rebreather because my OC habits are not good ones. When dedicated RB divers ask me why I don't dive a rebreather, I explain this, and they stop pestering me to get a rebreather.

An instructor who doesn't maintain the very highest standards of instruction may not, in all cases, convey the required information to their student, especially if they are teaching to make a living. Training agencies are designed to pump students through a course and meet a minimum standard. The rebreather manufacturers, with their high liability exposure, are looking for a bit more than meeting minimum standards. They want a say in who teaches on their unit.

 

[tridacna]

Ahh...LOL....you couldn't be more incorrect, th business practice Paul is following was actually invented here in the USA.....and is used all over the world, I think we need Paul to explain and document what that policy is so emotional incorrect assumptions stop.

There's so much misinformation being puked up by people that haven't an accurate understanding of what policy ACTUALLY exists.

Its 9:30 here in NYC, kids go to bed.

JonT

Wrong about what? I'm objecting to people comparing Paul's practices to those of car dealerships. As if car dealers are a model of virtue. It's a silly contrast. Who cares about where these sales models were invented? Apparently you do. Dunno why...

 

[The Chairman]

Talked with IANTD headquarters yesterday on my way to meet with the "Age of Aquarius" club at FIU. Here's what I learned.

• I quoted 2013 standards and they have changed just a bit. An IANTD CCR Trimix instructor has to be an instructor on the unit their student is diving now... not just a certified diver.
• CCR manufacturers get to approve who becomes an instructor. They don't have the right to take that away as far as I can tell.
• Once certified as a CCR Trimix instructor, it applies to all units they teach on once they meet the time/depth requirements for each unit.
• RESA demands that CCR manufacturers also get to decide who gets to be a CCR Trimix instructor on their unit... but that's very recent and it appears that Jim has been grandfathered in under the old rules that were in place when he became a CCR Trimix instructor. IANTD standards don't seem to match RESA's in this regard.

Also, there have been some concerns from a few industry wonks that libelous and unethical statements have been made by Jim towards Revo and Paul. Yeah, I was on the phone a lot yesterday! The truth is not libel. The truth is not unethical. Jim has been accused by Paul of starting this dialog in order to harm his reputation. That's patently false. I started this dialog for the very reasons I outlined in the OP. It's my observation that Paul threw the first punches towards Jim, eliciting Jim's response to protect his good name. In that regard, Paul kinda hijacked my thread. Again, and I've posted this before, I don't believe Revo's policies are fully understood by the general diving public and especially the first time rebreather buyer and they should be. While Paul has accused me of being unfair and imbalanced here, all I have sought to do is to suss out those policies so we can have a better understanding of who we're dealing with. In this regard, it doesn't matter what Paul thinks as it's the consumer who must decide whether or not to buy his products. Caveat emptor and all that applies here. The CCR buying public deserves to know why so many Course Directors are selling their Revo Rebreathers and moving on to different units. That's actually one of the purposes of a forum. Paul calls this sort of discussion unfair and I disagree with him.

 

[SillyQuestions]

Open discussion is always best.

I'm always skeptical of people trying to dampen it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tbone1004]

Huh?

Edge/HOG was really not that revolutionary as far as distribution models went, what got dealers and other brands pissed off was my stance on equipment servicing and my activity on scubaboard..

As far as Deep 6 is concerned, I could care less what other manufs or dealers think of my business model. It is consumer based and leaves room for instructors, a very few select and excellent dive centers (demo centers) and also support non profits that want to get donations.

I'm not naive enough to think that I won't have opposition, of course I will, it already started when my suppliers started getting pressure at DEMA from other brands that my business model will "kill the industry", of course that is a little bit like blaming the bartender that dropped a full glass of water when the Titanic started to sink for the sinking...but whatever.

Basically life is simple, either my model will work and folks that play with us and Deep 6 will succeed and make money, or we wont and we'll go away.

---------- Post added November 30th, 2015 at 09:38 PM ----------

no kidding....

was just commenting that when you broke the paradigm there was a lot of lashing out from the "good ol boy" network