Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[paulraymaekers]

Caveat: I just found out from Paul and confirmed through Jim, that Jim can teach CCR Trimix through IANTD and that this is a non-unit specific endorsement. While Paul may not want Jim to train CCR Trimix on a Revo Rebreather, he is pretty powerless to stop it. Paul does not agree with the training agency's policy about this but apparently they put the instructor's abilities ahead of a manufacturer's pecuniary interests. Oh the drama! IANTD, the training agency, the ones who bestow the cards upon us and anoints instructors, has no problem with any instructor, training anyone, anywhere in the world. That makes more sense. Eliminate the territoriality and let instructors teach based on their merits as an instructor rather than their ability to sell a product. I think TDI also has a Revo Rebreather program and would believe that they would be in about the same mind set. Do we know if any other agency is involved with this?

wrong!

CCR normoxic and hypoxic is unit specific, and needs instructor approval of the manufacturer. This has been agreed by all major training agencies and manufactures years ago, and is now adopted by all of them.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Disagree, has everything to do with setting up shop/franchise. As far as training Paul clearly posted.
Does this mean we dictate where someone should buy a unit and take a training?
No, of course not, as any customer can choose the instructor of their choice, can travel anywhere they want, and can buy a unit anywhere in the world.
Maybe Jim should of done his homework before moving to Key Largo.

It has already been stated.

I could buy my unit from Tom McCarthy in New York and Jim would not be able to teach me in Key Largo.

Jim already stated that any student in south florida who wanted to buy a unit from him was directed to addhelium, but he was (wanted?) to still be able to provide the training. Just because you have to buy unit in South Florida should not lock you into having to use their instructor---which is what Revo is doing buy saying XYZ instructor can work here and there, but instructors JW can only teach here.

 

[cathal]

wrong!

CCR normoxic and hypoxic is unit specific, and needs instructor approval of the manufacturer. This has been agreed by all major training agencies and manufactures years ago, and is now adopted by all of them.

Are you sure? I note PSAI are one of the supporting training agencies for RESA but they still teach non unit specific CCR Normoxic and Hypoxic courses.

Rgds

Cathal

 

[Seya]

Paul is just trying to sell more units. Addhelium sells the most so Peter makes the rules. If Peter doesn't want an instructor to teach somewhere he bans it. So if you don't want to be controlled by Peter ditch revo and teach another unit.

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[pensacolaracer]

Paul is just trying to sell more units. Addhelium sells the most so Peter makes the rules. If Peter doesn't want an instructor to teach somewhere he bans it. So if you don't want to be controlled by Peter ditch revo and teach another unit.

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Lol. Your statement would get easier to get behind if you said "Peter makes the rules in South Florida"... His territory.

Peter has no control over other areas... Well, except to help ensure we have the parts necessary to maintain and dive the units.

 

[vinegarbiscuit]

Deleted

 

[Wookie]

As a fairly disinterested outsider, having read every post, let me see if I have it clearly in my mind, and paraphrase what Paul and Jim have said. Add Helium has the exclusive rights to distribute rEvo rebreathers in South Florida. Jim has a dealership for rEvo rebreathers in North Florida. Jim also lives in the Florida Keys and is a employee or contractor for Rainbow Reef, a dive shop in someone else's rEvo territory, and a dive shop who appears to an outside observer to have put together a cadre of rEvo instructors. What paulraymeekers said was that he doesn't care where others taught. I'm on an iPad so I'll go back and get the reference in a minute.

Does this mean we dictate where someone should buy a unit and take a training?

No, of course not, as any customer can choose the instructor of their choice, can travel anywhere they want, and can buy a unit anywhere in the world.

What he said was that Jim couldn't advertise in someone else's area. He never said that Jim couldn't teach in Key Largo, not in this thread, anyway.

So my questions are, if Jim has a REvo shipped to his dealership in cave country and teaches mod 1 or trimix or wreck in Key Largo, is he in violation of his dealer agreement? Can someone post the dealer agreements?

Question 2 is, if Jim teaches mod 1 in Key Largo, does Rainbow Reef's name show up anywhere on a cert card, or is it Jims name, or is it the dealership in North Florida's name?

the way I read Paulraymeekers last long post, as long as Jim takes delivery of the unit in Cave Country, he can teach anywhere he wants. Am I wrong?

BTW, Dreamdive isn't Mr. Sotis, it's Mrs. Sotis.

 

[pensacolaracer]

This is a red herring. No one has suggested that every rebreather diver should be allowed to become an instructor. However, the opportunity for even a great instructor to teach a Revo here in Florida is just not there. It's not about competency, but about sucking up to someone. You see this as keeping the instructor cadre strong, we see it as nothing more than the 'good ol' boys' club it really is. That's why so many Course Directors are selling their Revo Rebreathers: they don't like the 'good ol' boys' mentality.

Another red herring. No one has suggested that every shop should be allowed to sell Revo Rebreathers. Are these answers clear? To be frank, they are a bit of a ramble. Unfortunately, they're not the ones that were posited by the OP or that came up later. Jim has lost sales because he can't sell a unit in North Florida and train them in Key Largo. Why are other instructors allowed to sell in their area and yet train in Jim's while the opposite is not allowed? You keep dodging this question.

Then why is Jim expressly forbidden from training in the Keys?

Except, of course, sell a Revo Rebreather in N Florida and train his student in Key Largo.

t This is where the disconnect lies. Very, very few people who come to the Keys are 'local'. But don't worry, these clients will be offered a completely different rebreather now. You've seen to it that they will never get a chance to try and train on a Revo Rebreather because no one in the Keys can teach on them.

Jim did not ask me to start this thread. It was my idea and I take complete responsibility for it. I was and am shocked to learn that the three Course Directors I was having Thanksgiving Day dinner with had all decided to put their Revo Rebreathers up for sale. I have to admit that I was first shocked when I saw Dsix36, a non-instructor, at the Hammerhead try dive. That he was having certain issues with the unit and how it was being marketed gave me pause. But then to have the three disillusioned Course Directors admit that they were moving to other Rebreathers that had no politics or drama involved, really gave me pause. Now I have learned of a fourth Course Director who's considering the very same thing and OMG! You want to make this about Jim, Jim, Jim and it's not, not not. Forcing these great instructors, and they are competent beyond any shadow of a doubt, to promote, sell and teach other Rebreathers is the ultimate fail. All because you want to protect one individual. That's the instructor you've given most favored instructor status to. He's the one you're treating differently.

Really? You think this was some diabolical scheme drummed up to harm the Revo Rebreather reputation? I call BS. Utter BS. I started out the thread stating unequivocally that it was a "solid unit with a good reputation". No one has said anything bad about the Revo Rebreather. Other units have definitely improved to the point of surpassing the Revo Rebreather in many regards, but this has been about instructors and users defecting from the unit. No one has made anything up here. Everyone but you can see that this protectionism is hurting and not helping an otherwise fine unit. If anything, you've damaged your own reputation by not answering the question that so many have asked. I for one had no idea about your policies until just recently. It's my opinion that the world should know the truth. If the truth hurts your reputation, then that's really not my or anyone's fault but yours. As you can see, we don't see them as very defensible.

One last thing...

I didn't know this until just now. I know that Jim teaches tri-mix on OC already. He has a great reputation in his tech classes for being tough but fair. So why not approve him as a CCR Revo Rebreather trimix instructor? Have you had complaints about his ability to teach? Do you believe he is not competent? Or is this simply out of spite or to placate the one dive shop in South Florida?

Out of curiosity and openness, do you mind disclosing how many of the four course directors you mention that are selling their rEvos work at or are affiliated with a dive shop(s) in the keys?

 

[boulderjohn]

If your main consideration in choosing your first rebreather is your ability to teach on the unit, then I would seriously question your motivation to get a rebreather and you should probably question your own motivations.

As instructors, if you're not picking a rebreather you might one day want to teach, you're not thinking far enough ahead.

There was a recent discussion in the instructor to Instructor forum that was started by someone who had just finished getting certified as an instructor and was frustrated that no dive operation would hire him onto their instructional staff. He could not understand why no one would give him a chance. The replies were pretty unanimous--he had chosen to be certified by a tiny agency that few people had ever heard of. No operation that is aligned with one or more of the major agencies can hire him because he can't teach their courses. If he wanted to instruct for a dive operation rather than as an independent, he should have chosen a different certifying agency. Duh!!!

The world of technical dive training is evolving, and it is getting to the point where you almost have to teach rebreathers to be active in that market. I once said I would never use a rebreather, but I am beginning to have second thoughts for that reason. If I decide to start learning to use a rebreather, it will certainly be with an eye to teaching it, and I will certainly not select a rebreather I will never be allowed to use in instruction.

This is one of the instances where the scuba industry needs some government regulation in my opinion. A rebreather manufacturer should not be able to dictate where someone can train folks on their equipment. It's a shady as F**k.

As cerich later suggested, that government regulation may already be in place.

Several years ago I was having a discussion with a friend who was a vice-President of company in the oil and gas industry. We were talking about a situation with someone else who was having a problem because he wanted to switch jobs and a non-compete agreement he had signed with his present company could potentially prevent that from happening. My friend was very familiar with such agreements, and his own company had people sign them. He said, however, that if push came to shove, they are unenforceable. They are mostly bluffs. You can't keep people from getting a job. Now, I imagine that would vary by the wording of the agreement and the state, but I wonder if this case is similar; I wonder about the legal basis for saying that someone is not allowed to do his job in a certain area because someone else does a job in that area as well.

 

[Scott]

So my questions are, if Jim has a REvo shipped to his dealership in cave country and teaches mod 1 or trimix or wreck in Key Largo, is he in violation of his dealer agreement? Can someone post the dealer agreements?

I believe Jim asked for one in a previous thread. I'm lead to believe these were verbal agreements.
Sad way to conduct business if a dealer agreement is in fact verbal.

I recall no written agreements regarding territories. If I signed such a document please let me see it, as I have no copy or recollection of such a document. I do recall that I was actively recruited to become a revo instructor to fill the gap in North Florida.

Brings another question if there is a written agreement. Is there a dealer agreement and an instructor agreement or is it all inclusive?