Robbing Paul to pay Peter... a disturbing trend with Revo Rebreathers

[cerich]

If this is the case, you need a lawyer, not scubaboard.

When I first read the OP I suspected the thread would go awry, and it has to some degree. While my thinking was to read and not post about this -- I am now going to explain my small part of the rEvo story alluded to by NetDoc.

Let me first state that I am a free market capitalist and believe in Laissez-faire economics. Because of that I firmly believe that any company has the right to do business as they want so long as they maintain a level playing field.

In my case, I do now live between Key Largo and High Springs for about the last 18 months. The “issue” is that I have been prohibited by rEvo from teaching rEvo classes and selling rEvo rebreathers in Key Largo because it is someone else’s territory. I would have no problem with that prohibition *IF* the other rEvo instructors were prohibited from teaching in my territory. But they are not.

It is very common to see a few rEvo instructors teaching entry level and CCR cave rEvo classes in my North Florida territory. I never had a problem with that because my thinking was that somehow they were better at marketing the rEvo than I was. At that point I simply tried to figure out how for me to do a better job competing.

Fast forward to 2014 when Gwen and I bought a house in Key Largo and I started driving dive boats and teaching some classes there. I was admonished to not teach rEvo classes in Key Largo. I said I would agree to this *if* the other rEvo instructors were admonished to not teach in High Springs/North Florida, my assigned territory, making a more level playing field.

I was informed that this would not happen. That the others still could teach in North Florida because it is a diving “destination” – I countered that Key Largo is a dive destination, to no avail.

And yes there are three rEvos sitting at Cave Country Dive Shop ... brand new in the box from rEvo headquarters for another rEvo instructor to show up and teach a rEvo class with.

So as we stand now it is OK for other rEvo instructors to teach in my territory, but I am prohibited from teaching in Key Largo. That is my problem.

---------- Post added November 30th, 2015 at 06:30 AM ----------

you and revo (and addhelium)need to spend some time learning abut anti trust and collusion...seriously. Yeah, I know it's far too common in the dive industry but it doesn't make it right.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collusion

Agreements:??

I recall no written agreements regarding territories. If I signed such a document please let me see it, as I have no copy or recollection of such a document. I do recall that I was actively recruited to become a revo instructor to fill the gap in North Florida.

The things I recall are that I would be the exclusive dealer for selling revo rebreathers in North Florida. I recall no such agreement that I could not travel to Key largo, or anywhere else and teach someone to dive on the revo. Paul spent about a week, maybe longer as a guest in my home and my family enjoyed his company, as he did ours I believe. So I spent all day, and most evenings with Paul for that entire period of time and I recall no such rules as my being unable to teach in places like Key Largo.

There would have been no thought of my being able to do that since there were several instructors teaching Mod 1, 2 and ccr cave on revos in north Florida.

Also I recall a verbal agreement with Mr. Sotis that I would not sell revos to South Floridians, and we agreed if someone from South Florida inquired I would refer them to Mr. Sotis. I had and have no issues with Paul giving Mr. Sotis an exclusivity for revo sales in South Florida. I never sold a revo to anyone in South Florida, nor did Mr Sotis or anyone sell a revo to anyone in North Florida, to my knowledge.

The people who live in that area, for the most part went for the O2ptima, and now that the O2ptima has gotten new electronics more and more North Florida people will buy the O2ptima.


Once again..and I am really beating a dead horse here and I apologize to those of you who "got it" from my first post here. Why are all those revo instructors allowed to teach in my territory while I am not allowed to teach in Key Largo?

View attachment 220443

The argument that I spend most of my time in Key Largo lacks merit as a substantial reason to prevent me from teaching here. There is one revo instructor, who has three brand new revos sitting in boxes at Cave Country Dive Shop who probably spends as much time in Cave Country teaching classes as I do the Keys teaching classes, yet there is no prohibition against that instructor.

 

[The Chairman]

1 should everybody who buys a rebreather automatically be allowed to become instructor?

This is a red herring. No one has suggested that every rebreather diver should be allowed to become an instructor. However, the opportunity for even a great instructor to teach a Revo here in Florida is just not there. It's not about competency, but about sucking up to someone. You see this as keeping the instructor cadre strong, we see it as nothing more than the 'good ol' boys' club it really is. That's why so many Course Directors are selling their Revo Rebreathers: they don't like the 'good ol' boys' mentality.

2 should every dive operation automatically be allowed to offer training on a specific rebreather?

Another red herring. No one has suggested that every shop should be allowed to sell Revo Rebreathers. Are these answers clear? To be frank, they are a bit of a ramble. Unfortunately, they're not the ones that were posited by the OP or that came up later. Jim has lost sales because he can't sell a unit in North Florida and train them in Key Largo. Why are other instructors allowed to sell in their area and yet train in Jim's while the opposite is not allowed? You keep dodging this question.

Does this mean we dictate where someone should buy a unit and take a training?

No, of course not, as any customer can choose the instructor of their choice, can travel anywhere they want, and can buy a unit anywhere in the world.

Then why is Jim expressly forbidden from training in the Keys?

3 is Jim being treated differently from other instructors? Is Jim not allowed to do something, where others are allowed?

Except, of course, sell a Revo Rebreather in N Florida and train his student in Key Largo.

t

- then Jim starts to work for a local operator that wants to go into direct competition with the good running business, and started to actively recruit local clients. (No other instructor has done this)

This is where the disconnect lies. Very, very few people who come to the Keys are 'local'. But don't worry, these clients will be offered a completely different rebreather now. You've seen to it that they will never get a chance to try and train on a Revo Rebreather because no one in the Keys can teach on them.

Now Jim starts a campaign, using a group of friends,

Jim did not ask me to start this thread. It was my idea and I take complete responsibility for it. I was and am shocked to learn that the three Course Directors I was having Thanksgiving Day dinner with had all decided to put their Revo Rebreathers up for sale. I have to admit that I was first shocked when I saw Dsix36, a non-instructor, at the Hammerhead try dive. That he was having certain issues with the unit and how it was being marketed gave me pause. But then to have the three disillusioned Course Directors admit that they were moving to other Rebreathers that had no politics or drama involved, really gave me pause. Now I have learned of a fourth Course Director who's considering the very same thing and OMG! You want to make this about Jim, Jim, Jim and it's not, not not. Forcing these great instructors, and they are competent beyond any shadow of a doubt, to promote, sell and teach other Rebreathers is the ultimate fail. All because you want to protect one individual. That's the instructor you've given most favored instructor status to. He's the one you're treating differently.

I know, and Jim and his friends know, that this campaign is set up to harm the rEvo reputation,

Really? You think this was some diabolical scheme drummed up to harm the Revo Rebreather reputation? I call BS. Utter BS. I started out the thread stating unequivocally that it was a "solid unit with a good reputation". No one has said anything bad about the Revo Rebreather. Other units have definitely improved to the point of surpassing the Revo Rebreather in many regards, but this has been about instructors and users defecting from the unit. No one has made anything up here. Everyone but you can see that this protectionism is hurting and not helping an otherwise fine unit. If anything, you've damaged your own reputation by not answering the question that so many have asked. I for one had no idea about your policies until just recently. It's my opinion that the world should know the truth. If the truth hurts your reputation, then that's really not my or anyone's fault but yours. As you can see, we don't see them as very defensible.

One last thing...

and he knows that I will not approve him as CCR rEvo trimix instructor

I didn't know this until just now. I know that Jim teaches tri-mix on OC already. He has a great reputation in his tech classes for being tough but fair. So why not approve him as a CCR Revo Rebreather trimix instructor? Have you had complaints about his ability to teach? Do you believe he is not competent? Or is this simply out of spite or to placate the one dive shop in South Florida?

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I appreciate NetDoc for starting this thread. Overall, ... well ... let's just say that as a future CCR customer, this thread has given me pause such that I will not only consider the price/features/maintainability/support/etc., but also business policies.

As stated earlier when Marci and I made purchasing decisions for a rebreather, that decision was based not just on the unit and how well it matched the dives we intend to make with it, but also the instructor, and the area where the training would occur. It was very much a package deal.

Just as we want fully informed choice in the decision to by a particular rebreather, we also want fully informed choice in choosing the instructor and training location. Those are not decisions I am willing to delegate to rEvo, based on rEvo's biases, priorities and preferences.

 

[ScubaAl]

If I owned a Chevrolet dealership (I wish) in one city/town can I go to another city/town and open a Chevrolet dealership near to an existing dealership? How about a McDonalds, same question.

Al

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Not the same thing. He was not trying to open a dealership. He has a dealership in n florida. He wanted to train people who bought at that dealership in n Florida in the keys. That he works for another shop as a course director, which has some screwed up rules in itself, should have no bearing on that. If I own a Chevy dealership and one of my customers comes from a town where another dealer is, buys a car from me, then wants me to service the car and also teach them to use every feature on it at their home, do I refuse them? Hell no. However that example is nonsense. Car dealers don't do that. It's as nonsensical as using them to make a comparison of rebreather instructors. What is more apropos is saying that if a customer buys a reg and bpw from me on line, and I then choose or am asked to set it up and train them in their town where another dealer also sells my line that I can't? The other dealer should be given the chance to train them? Not going to happen. I decide where any training takes place along with my student. Not my supplier or another dealer.

 

[japan-diver]

As someone about to pull the trigger on buying a RB in the next month, I find this discusssion very interesting. I am also a CD and tech instructor (and have a few hours on several RBs including an RB80 certification from way back) and my purchase decision is based not only on what I need the RB to do for my diving but the possiblity that I may be wanting to teach that particular RB in the future. The Revo was in the final running in the units I am looking at and has some nice features and I have enjoyed the rental units I have dove on projects in the past two years, but this thread is really a large strike against the unit in my thoughts.

 

[The Chairman]

Caveat: I just found out from Paul and confirmed through Jim, that Jim can teach CCR Trimix through IANTD and that this is a non-unit specific endorsement. While Paul may not want Jim to train CCR Trimix on a Revo Rebreather, he is pretty powerless to stop it. Paul does not agree with the training agency's policy about this but apparently they put the instructor's abilities ahead of a manufacturer's pecuniary interests. Oh the drama! IANTD, the training agency, the ones who bestow the cards upon us and anoints instructors, has no problem with any instructor, training anyone, anywhere in the world. That makes more sense. Eliminate the territoriality and let instructors teach based on their merits as an instructor rather than their ability to sell a product. I think TDI also has a Revo Rebreather program and would believe that they would be in about the same mind set. Do we know if any other agency is involved with this?

 

[CptTightPants21]

If I owned a Chevrolet dealership (I wish) in one city/town can I go to another city/town and open a Chevrolet dealership near to an existing dealership? How about a McDonalds, same question.

Al

You own a dealership and one day a customer comes in and would like a test drive. You take them out, show them all the cool features on the car, they drive themselves onto a few different streets. When the driver puts on his right turn signal to make a right onto a busy commonly used road, you tell the customer that he can't drive down this road while in this car. This has nothing to do with setting up shops/franchises next to each other, it is dealership A's car can't be driven in certain places while dealership B's cars can go wherever they want.

 

[victorzamora]

-Delete-

 

[ScubaAl]

Disagree, has everything to do with setting up shop/franchise. As far as training Paul clearly posted.
Does this mean we dictate where someone should buy a unit and take a training?
No, of course not, as any customer can choose the instructor of their choice, can travel anywhere they want, and can buy a unit anywhere in the world.
Maybe Jim should of done his homework before moving to Key Largo.

You own a dealership and one day a customer comes in and would like a test drive. You take them out, show them all the cool features on the car, they drive themselves onto a few different streets. When the driver puts on his right turn signal to make a right onto a busy commonly used road, you tell the customer that he can't drive down this road while in this car. This has nothing to do with setting up shops/franchises next to each other, it is dealership A's car can't be driven in certain places while dealership B's cars can go wherever they want.