Regulator sourcing discussion

[Dive Right In Scuba]

I have yet to see a world renowed instructor utilize hogs regs on big dives. If so, the market share with the elite instructor/divers is very, very small.

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Kim Inge, has taken them below 400ft.....If you don't know who she is, run a couple searches. She is more badass than most people you would consider "ELITE". Most of your world renowed divers, don't brag about what they dive.....they just go out and dive. That is just 1 person....there are MANY MANY MANY people taking them below 300ft with no concerns. They might not be at the elite status you claim, but do the hardcore dives none the less.

 

[Karl_H]

I'd just add I've only been using the Hog regs for around 18 months so can't comment on the long term maintenance, however the sets I own have been used a lot and have regularly gone below 100m/330ft in both OC and CCR configurations. I have a planned dive to 125m/410ft this coming weekend and would use my Hog D1s without a second thought. Yep, I’m not exactly be a world renowned instructor but I’m sure there’s a hell of a lot of other people like me who have some idea what they are doing and have no problems in using them.

The fact the manufacturer freely opens up about where the regs are made, assembled, who they perform and will happily answer questions on forums such as Scubaboard says a lot in itself – plus I’ve not seen a bad independent review on the product yet.

I generally dived only Apeks or Scubapro regs previously, but have recently been buying only Hogs. The only regs I still use over the Hogs right now are Mk25s for sidemount, as the longer turret gives better routing for the sidemount hoses on Al80 tanks – however I’m planning to try out the new Hog BP1’s very soon.

I’m from the UK but have to concede that UK manufacturing just isn’t as good as some people think these days, many countries way behind a few years ago have caught up and overtaken in terms of standards and quality. Generally there’s some great stuff in the UK but let’s not forget there’s also some complete crap made there, especially when it comes to scuba gear - plastic rebreathers hidden away in a brightly colored box instantly spring to mind?

 

[DCBC]

It seems that when it comes to regulators, people seem to support the make and model of regulator they own. It reminds me of a discussion I had with a friend about his new Lada. Not surprisingly, he suggested that I buy one as well... I'm sure it suited his needs and his pocket-book; he was happy and that's good for him. If you like HOG, great! Personally I prefer Apeks, if for no other reason than I spent money and don't want to think that I could have paid less for something just as good... I'd like to think that that's not the case, but in-spite of making my living diving for over 40 years, I haven't used every make and model of regulator in every type of condition. As a Navy diver at DCIEM, I tested several regulators which showed that some had better performance than others, but even the 'losers' would provide the average diver with the performance that they would likely require in their lifetime!

Personally, I don't have a problem if something isn't made in N.A. I drive a German car, wear a Swiss watch and watch a TV that's made in Japan. The Strawberries I had for breakfast were from Mexico. The world is a global village; it's no surprise....

 

[Chris Brown Tech]

Kim Inge, has taken them below 400ft.....If you don't know who she is, run a couple searches. She is more badass than most people you would consider "ELITE". Most of your world renowed divers, don't brag about what they dive.....they just go out and dive. That is just 1 person....there are MANY MANY MANY people taking them below 300ft with no concerns. They might not be at the elite status you claim, but do the hardcore dives none the less.

in the interests of full disclosure lets point out that Kim Inges dive was an Add Helium PR dive (awesome though, I agree) and that Add Helium are a hog dealer. As are you.

All regs in discussion on here are good enough to perform in the tech diving arena. I don't think anyone suggested otherwise.

SLaswell hit the nail on the head with people's objection to the brand. Nobody's saying they are crap regs. We are saying please don't insult our intelligence by claiming the component materials are equal or better than apeks, Poseidon etc. I think I clarified that at least 4 times in this thread.

---------- Post Merged at 04:05 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:58 AM ----------

I'd just add I've only been using the Hog regs for around 18 months so can't comment on the long term maintenance, however the sets I own have been used a lot and have regularly gone below 100m/330ft in both OC and CCR configurations. I have a planned dive to 125m/410ft this coming weekend and would use my Hog D1s without a second thought. Yep, I’m not exactly be a world renowned instructor but I’m sure there’s a hell of a lot of other people like me who have some idea what they are doing and have no problems in using them.

The fact the manufacturer freely opens up about where the regs are made, assembled, who they perform and will happily answer questions on forums such as Scubaboard says a lot in itself – plus I’ve not seen a bad independent review on the product yet.

I generally dived only Apeks or Scubapro regs previously, but have recently been buying only Hogs. The only regs I still use over the Hogs right now are Mk25s for sidemount, as the longer turret gives better routing for the sidemount hoses on Al80 tanks – however I’m planning to try out the new Hog BP1’s very soon.

I’m from the UK but have to concede that UK manufacturing just isn’t as good as some people think these days, many countries way behind a few years ago have caught up and overtaken in terms of standards and quality. Generally there’s some great stuff in the UK but let’s not forget there’s also some complete crap made there, especially when it comes to scuba gear - plastic rebreathers hidden away in a brightly colored box instantly spring to mind?

How is this relevant to Apeks? They have a world class manufacturing facility. I also like the fact that they employ English people, provide benefits and invest in the economy. There's nothing sub standard about them I can assure you!

regarding brightly colored plastic rebreathers, who are you talking about? Surely not ambient pressure? You have to be kidding me? The worlds best selling rebreather that has done more sub 100m dives than any other model?? The choice of scientific, military and commercial film makers worldwide? I hopes here's another brand I can't recall that your referring to. If not, it just demonstrates why these threads are useful.

 

[chrpai]

in the interests of full disclosure lets point out that Kim Inges dive was an Add Helium PR dive (awesome though, I agree) and that Add Helium are a hog dealer. As are you.

"World Class Elite" people tend to be associated with brands, sponsors and so on. Not a big shocker.

All regs in discussion on here are good enough to perform in the tech diving arena. I don't think anyone suggested otherwise.

Scott L suggested it.

SLaswell hit the nail on the head with people's objection to the brand. Nobody's saying they are crap regs. We are saying please don't insult our intelligence by claiming the component materials are equal or better than apeks, Poseidon etc. I think I clarified that at least 4 times in this thread.

You don't use the word crap but it seems like you try to imply it while dancing your way around it.

I would say don't insult MY intelligence in saying that an over-priced, over-engineered, gold-plated product is a better choice then a lower price, well engineered, chrome-plated product that by your own admission is suitable for 400' dives. If someone has the money and want's the former, I don't care. I'm not "married" to Hog. It just makes the most sense for me at this time.

 

[Karl_H]

regarding brightly colored plastic rebreathers, who are you talking about? Surely not ambient pressure? You have to be kidding me? The worlds best selling rebreather that has done more sub 100m dives than any other model?? The choice of scientific, military and commercial film makers worldwide? I hopes here's another brand I can't recall that your referring to. If not, it just demonstrates why these threads are useful.

I'll not say anymore on this one, it just goes to show how some good marketing plus poor research prior to buying equipment can take badly made equipment! Anyone diving this unit tends to regret buying it or is generally beyond help - the chances are they still use VR computers and can't see much wrong with the Poseidon MkVI CCR too?

 

[ScubaSteve]

Wow, if reading this thread has taught me anything, it is that many people have no clue about manufacturing. Until somebody can post objective and valid data confirming that HOG regs are of lesser quality that the others, then the point can be ignored IMO. That data would have to be unbiased and measurable/confirmed. Just because something is manufactured offshore does NOT make it of lesser quality. Just like saying that something is "Made in the USA" does not mean that a high percentage of the components did not come from off shore (as Chris - Cerich has mentioned). I have been involved in sourcing/manufacturing in Canada, USA, Mexico, China and Taiwan (the latter only injection molded parts - not full blown mfg). Some of the worst made crap out there comes from our own back door. Made in Canada/USA guarantees you nothing except an angry, bitter union employee that feels they deserve better in life and only half pay attention to what they are doing all day. Granted there are some good manufacturing plants in the UK/USA/Canada but an ISO9001 poster on the wall is not an indicator of quality. There are a lot of crap manufacturers out their that manage to achieve their ISO certifications every year. It is funny how that happens considering the auditor does not get any additional funds from a company that they strip of their designation. This means it is in their financial best interest to pass everybody and come back to confirm the errors have been corrected. This can and does happen year over year.

I am a recreational HOG diver. My last regs were AquaLung and if you do a search (I recommend not), you will see that I had nothing but problems with them. 3 different shops could not turn them from **** to gold. Granted they were not top end regs but I do not see anybody saying that lower end AL are crap. Just that HOG are crap and AL (among others) are awesome. It drives me nuts (short trip on the best of days) when people get into these threads and do everything possible to hammer HOG. If you are going to claim that HOG is of lesser quality, back it up with facts (or anything that resembles them).

 

[Chris Brown Tech]

Wow, if reading this thread has taught me anything, it is that many people have no clue about manufacturing. Until somebody can post objective and valid data confirming that HOG regs are of lesser quality that the others, then the point can be ignored IMO. That data would have to be unbiased and measurable/confirmed. Just because something is manufactured offshore does NOT make it of lesser quality. Just like saying that something is "Made in the USA" does not mean that a high percentage of the components did not come from off shore (as Chris - Cerich has mentioned). I have been involved in sourcing/manufacturing in Canada, USA, Mexico, China and Taiwan (the latter only injection molded parts - not full blown mfg). Some of the worst made crap out there comes from our own back door. Made in Canada/USA guarantees you nothing except an angry, bitter union employee that feels they deserve better in life and only half pay attention to what they are doing all day. Granted there are some good manufacturing plants in the UK/USA/Canada but an ISO9001 poster on the wall is not an indicator of quality. There are a lot of crap manufacturers out their that manage to achieve their ISO certifications every year. It is funny how that happens considering the auditor does not get any additional funds from a company that they strip of their designation. This means it is in their financial best interest to pass everybody and come back to confirm the errors have been corrected. This can and does happen year over year.

I am a recreational HOG diver. My last regs were AquaLung and if you do a search (I recommend not), you will see that I had nothing but problems with them. 3 different shops could not turn them from **** to gold. Granted they were not top end regs but I do not see anybody saying that lower end AL are crap. Just that HOG are crap and AL (among others) are awesome. It drives me nuts (short trip on the best of days) when people get into these threads and do everything possible to hammer HOG. If you are going to claim that HOG is of lesser quality, back it up with facts (or anything that resembles them).

You make some great points. Thats what we are trying to understand here. The process has been started by disproving some of the claims made in this thread. Im trying to establish a baseline. Chris had offered to send me regs for testing and I promise an unbiased review. lets stick to high end products for clarity too. I dont disagree that some of the manufacturers have some lower end regs too. The AquaLung ABS octo springs to mind.

Theres no Hog bashing here either. Quite the opposite. We are trying to get some validity into the claims that Hog are as good or higher quality than Apeks, AquaLung, Scubapro, Poseidon. Lets see.

The first false claim is that the top brands I mentioned all source parts from the Asian market. We are starting with Apeks to keep thing simple, then we can talk about the others later and then debate even if its even relevant and which country makes the best products.

FACT - Apeks Marine does not source ANY parts for their regulators from anywhere. They are all made in house in Blackburn England. Their facility is world class, they employ people and contribute to the UK economy as a result. This is some evidence to justify the price tag and allow people to make a choice as to what they buy from where and why.

Ill clarify more about their quality of manufacturing once I get the data.

 

[g1138]

Just throwing it out there, not sure if it's been stated. (couldn't bother to read through the entire argument)

Where does Apeks, Scubapro, HOG, and all the other manufacturer's get their O-rings, springs, plastic poppets, and general parts for their parts kit? They don't make them in shop you know.......
Those USA built regs are only assembled in the US. It's not always that all parts are made, hammered, or forged in the US. Maybe just the regulator body to be honest.

 

[Paladin]

Poseidon invented the single hose regulator. Their quality and innovation is undeniable. Love them or hate them, they make a quality product.

No, they did not.

Vintage Single Hose Regulator Collection