Regulator sourcing discussion

[cbm32]

Chris, my problem is that you keep referring to "high end" regs and saying that HOG is not one of those. As far as I can see you are basing that on company history and where the regs are manufactured, along with some mention of price points.

How about talking about performance and durability? To me THOSE are the things that make a reg "high end". Performance and durability are what I, as a user, am concerned with first and foremost. I really dont care who designed what, where it was made, what name is on it, what it is or what kind of graphics it has on it.

Does it breathe easy? Will it hold up under typical use for a good number of years? If there is a some kind of problem with my individual reg set will the company give a crap and stand behind it? If the answer to these questions is yes, I move on to how much will it cost me?

If the answer to those questions puts a bunch of reg in pretty much the same category, and there is one that will save me a significant amount of money, that is the one I will buy.

I will not claim to have the kind of background and experience in this industry/endeavor that others have. But, I can google pretty good and like to think I am at least smart enough to understand most of what I read. I have found a significant amount of information about problems with some companies and so scratch them off my list. I have NOT found any significant complaints about HOG/EDGE or the company support of their products. I have not seen you post anything at all about HOG/EDGE not performing well or not being durable and yet you insist they are not a high end reg. This, in spite of a vast amount of testimony from HOG/EDGE users that are technical divers and have hundreds if not thousands of dives using a lot of different reg sets and have now switched to HOG.

If you have any first hand information or know of any unbiased, legitimate research/testing that has shown that HOG regs do not belong in the same discussion with what you refer to as "high end" regs, please post it. If you do not have any such material to share I can not see how you can realistically defend your position that these other regs are clearly superior to HOGs.

Perhaps I am short sighted when I do not consider the long history of other company's and their R&D etc etc etc. But my bottom line is my comfort and safety and bank account. So far I see no evidence at all that my comfort and safety have been or will be effected by my choice to by HOG and in so doing preserving some of my bank account.

 

[Chris Brown Tech]

I am trying to understand what makes the quality of certain regulators better than the apparent deficient quality of HOG regs. You seem to conceed that they work fine but,,,, they are of lower quality... What criteria do you use as a metric of quality? Having a really good R&D team may help a company produce a great product, but if another manufacturer can apply the results of that R&D into their regulator, then I can't understand how that translate into more quality for the consumer.

If the discussion would include say corrosion resistance, burst pressure of the hoses, tolerance of hoses or fitting, the durability of various wear items, some other objective comparitive aspects, then maybe the "quality" arguement would have some relevance to me.

However, to say the HOG regs work fine but they are of lower quality beause of the location of where they are made....just doesn't resonate well with me.

Because there is a picture being painted here by Edge dive gear and some of Chris's supporters that

a) the quality is the same as Apeks, Scubapro, AquaLung, Atomic, Halcyon, Poseidon and b)that indeed these specific manufacturers have similar manufacturing tactics to Edge.

Quality of manufacture is important for performance, reliability, consistency and expected product life.

So lets first understand the answers to these questions and then it will be clear if there is any difference in quality of component parts, manufacturing processes and we can then understand if there is any real tangible difference between the two brands that justifies the difference in the price tag ​

 

[cerich]

excuse typos, I am on my phone...yes in fact my regs are produced in a ISO plant. The regs I mentioned are not made down the street they are made in the same place. You keep on saying apeks, I never mentioned apeks. Apeks are made in England. Having sailed in British made submarines I can't look at British made as being good anyhow...anyway why do you mention halcyon regs?, they are just plain scubapro and there is nothing there but name that Halcyon brings to the table.If you look at my regs you'll see unique design features on mine that we have done. The reversible, the D2, the new edge 2nd, the BPs and very soon a D3. These are unique to edge and hog. I find interesting how you now only want to compare my products and where they are made to Apeks,SP and Posedin. I never said those companies make their regulators or parts in the same place,, you have managed to somehow narrow your list. LOL.

You keep on calling my regs lower end, yet you aren't defining what makes them so. Is it the price? I know their performance is amazing as is build quality. I have stated I would welcome comparison, I have happily posted my regs performance charts, you offer your view yet aren't willing to back it up with actual facts.

My question was directed at Chris. Lets see if he responds.

Lets be perfectly clear. Chris stated that the reg manufacturers get their parts from the same places he does. He is also claiming there is a manufacturer that gets their regs made just down the street from where his are made. He also states that his regs must perform as well as the others otherwise their reps would be running around pointing out the Hog deficiencies.

Lets be clear on my position. I have acknowledged there is a market for lower quality regs. I have commended the Edge brand for their success in gaining market share with lower priced products. I am however, questioning the opinion in this thread that a) the quality is the same as Apeks, Scubapro, AquaLung, Atomic, Halcyon, Poseidon and b)that indeed these specific manufacturers have similar manufacturing tactics to Edge.

So, over to Chris and Edge. Lets start with Apeks and their world class manufacturing facility in Blackburn England. In response to my first point - What manufacturing facility does Edge have to compare? Does he have ISO9001 or similar standards. What quality control is in place to ensure similar manufacturing standards? In response to my second point - Which parts do Apeks source from the same chinese / Taiwanese factories as Edge and are they core parts such as brass first stages, chrome plating processes etc?

Once we get a clear comparison with Apeks, Id like to do the same with Poseidon and then Scubapro

I'd also like some more information on the brand that Chris claims falsely markets their reg as Made in USA when it is in fact made down the street from where his are made. Id like to know who that is and to clarify that it is not an Apeks, Scubapro, Haclyon, Poseidon or Atomic reg he is talking about.

---------- Post Merged at 10:01 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 09:48 AM ----------

no reps, don't hardly spend any money on ads.I bet I spend more on the actual res than others. there are many factors that affect cost, many of them have nothing to do with quality

Because there is a picture being painted here by Edge dive gear and some of Chris's supporters that

a) the quality is the same as Apeks, Scubapro, AquaLung, Atomic, Halcyon, Poseidon and b)that indeed these specific manufacturers have similar manufacturing tactics to Edge.

Quality of manufacture is important for performance, reliability, consistency and expected product life.

So lets first understand the answers to these questions and then it will be clear if there is any difference in quality of component parts, manufacturing processes and we can then understand if there is any real tangible difference between the two brands that justifies the difference in the price tag ​

 

[redacted]

The ONLY point Im making in this thread is that for me personally, I recommend higher quality brands than Hog. Thats all. I never said they were rubbish. I recognize their market share and I commend them for being successful. I only subsequently objected the notion being touted in this thread that they are either equal in quality to the high end Poseidon, Apeks, Atomics, Halcyon/Scubapros and AquaLungs or that those manufacturers are doing similar manufacturing tactics to Edge.

If you look at my regs you'll see unique design features on mine that we have done. The reversible, the D2, the new edge 2nd, the BPs and very soon a D3. These are unique to edge and hog.

Based on testimonials from reasonably credible divers on this board, I see nothing to suggest that HOG/Edge quality is in any meaningful way inferior to any of the big name (big retail price tag) brands. And based on The schematics on the HOG website, I also see nothing to make me think HOG/Edge products have any irresistible "unique" features other than a very attractive price tag. I look at this HOG 2nd schematic (http://www.edge-gear.com/Assets/HOG_CLASSIC_2ND_SCHEMATIC.jpg) and see a typical balanced barrel poppet 2nd as offered by almost all manufacturers. In fact, I'll bet most, if not all, use the same LP seat.

So, where are the quality shortfalls and the unique design features?

 

[cerich]

by unique I meant that those are designs we are doing, not just re badging oem shelf designs. I would not suggest we are doing any new unique design approach, in fact happy to say we are making really good regulators on time based designs and making them as high performance and robust as possible while maintaining simplicity of repair and tuning. Thus no "fine tune" on the adjustment knob side.

Based on testimonials from reasonably credible divers on this board, I see nothing to suggest that HOG/Edge quality is in any meaningful way inferior to any of the big name (big retail price tag) brands. And based on The schematics on the HOG website, I also see nothing to make me think HOG/Edge products have any irresistible "unique" features other than a very attractive price tag. I look at this HOG 2nd schematic (http://www.edge-gear.com/Assets/HOG_CLASSIC_2ND_SCHEMATIC.jpg) and see a typical balanced barrel poppet 2nd as offered by almost all manufacturers. In fact, I'll bet most, if not all, use the same LP seat.

So, where are the quality shortfalls and the unique design features?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I used to be really down on anything made overseas. Until I bought my first imported vehicle. Before that it was right out of college and I went to work in a Curtis Mathes TV repair shop until I found something in my field. The big thing then was this new amazing technology called Beta recorders. Curtis Mathes TV sets were US made. And always in the shop. Picture tubes were crap and replaced on a regular basis.

We sold and serviced other brands as well. RCA, Sony, Admiral, and Panasonic. I know sales were about the same across the board as the area was quite diverse economically. But we hardly ever saw the Sony's and Panasonic's in the shop. They just did not break down at the same rate as the American made brands.

My computer is a Dell. But many of the components are made overseas. I got rid of my GMC Envoy this year. Went to a Toyota Rav 4. It gets 28 mpg as compared to my Envoy's 17-20. It has one of the highest consumer reports reliability ratings for SUV's. Are there things I wish I had on it? Sure but I don't need them. I could have went with another GM or Ford (don't even mention Dodge), but I would have spent more money than I needed and not gotten as much vehicle.

Saying something is bad because of where it's made is just plain BS. Unless it has actual quality issues that are real and not imagined. Why not say dump your Iphones and Ipads. They are not as high quality as Samsung, Motorola, etc. Because they are made in China.

Sorry if this offends anyone but I have to listen to shiite like this all day at work. I have a guy who is ok with Biden as president but not Obama and I'm not going to lower myself to say why this is. I think any reasonably intelligent person can see the answer. To say something is bad because of where it's made and in the same vein who makes it sounds to me like a bit of racism. Maybe not. But as I get older and hopefully wiser I see things in a different vein.

It's no different than saying you don't want to use certain dive ops because foreigners own them. Silly, stupid, sick statement.

We don't like to admit it. Some won't. But a geographical location does not make a product. A people do. In this case a people made up of a certain ethnicity. You hear it all the time. Why is it bad? Well it's made in China. So? Everybody knows China (read the Chinese) make junk. No they don't. Any company can put out junk. Even ones here in the US.

Think Dodge Aspens of the early 70's.

I can't make DEMA this year. Sounds like it will be fun though. Amazing to me at last year's show though how open and friendly the overseas mfg's were as compared to many of the US ones. They didn't have their noses in the air and overlook anyone. I was treated by many of them as if I were a major buyer. Just asking questions and they went out of their way to be friendly and helpful. A few US mfg's could take lessons from them.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

Without calling anyone names, as you did to Chris in your first post. Which is clearly a personal attack on a well respected shop owner and dive industry professional.

Let's see. The discussion was about regulators. Yes? The discussion wasn't about fins. To even make that point more clear. THIS is the Regulator forum. Not General Scuba. Just Regulators. Almost every dive company buys their masks or fins overseas... wow you got me there.. I'm back pedaling now.

Let's see for Regulators... hmm... Answer: Apeks they assemble and manufacture all of their regulators in Blackburn, England.

Well the "well respected shop owner and dive industry professional" made a comment that really did not help the OP at all, he suggested products that restrict part sales to the consumer after he stated that he was pursuing aftermarket reg training. No not very helpful, and that is what prompted the "clown" comment. I'm sure Apeks as well as other manufactures source parts from a third party , no I can't prove it as most manufacturers keep these things under wraps. You have made it very clear in the past that your feelings about Edge/HOG are the same as Chris browns's views. You know what that is fine but why don't you back up your claims with actual stats about durability and performance because this is what it really boils down to. All the big name manufacturers are claiming they are doing all this great R&D but how much have regs changed in the past 20 years? Most of the R&D being done now seams to be going into fluff like "pink chrome" to sell the product instead of actual core reg design. This brings up the product price and gives the consumer less of a value. Lets look at SP's probably most well respected second stage that is being produced at this time, the G250v. They started out with the G250 which people loved, SP spends money on R&D and comes out with the G250HP, this becomes a flop and they revert back to the G250V. I'm sure SP has recovered the money for the original G250 many times over, I just don't see the justification for the $350 price tag for the product. I know you don't see things my way and that's fine with me. If you don't like this post or any others in this thread please delete it or move it to the Wine and Cheese section like you did with my other posts you didn't like.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

Because there is a picture being painted here by Edge dive gear and some of Chris's supporters that

a) the quality is the same as Apeks, Scubapro, AquaLung, Atomic, Halcyon, Poseidon and b)that indeed these specific manufacturers have similar manufacturing tactics to Edge.

Quality of manufacture is important for performance, reliability, consistency and expected product life.

So lets first understand the answers to these questions and then it will be clear if there is any difference in quality of component parts, manufacturing processes and we can then understand if there is any real tangible difference between the two brands that justifies the difference in the price tag ​

I have no idea what you are trying to say.... YOU are the one who seems to be saying their quality is inferior (even though the performance is fine). So.. I would say the burden of proof should be on YOU to show what exactly makes their regualtors inferior in "quality". This is more logical than to have us simply accept your premise that the HOG regs are inferior and therefore it is necessary for them to prove that they are not.

In other words, I would give them the benefit of doubt...

 

[halocline]

I would be interested in having a chance to check out a HOG balanced piston 1st and barrel poppet 2nd. I know a pretty fair amount about the classic regs based on those designs and would be curious to see how they compare to the SP MK20/G250 et al.

Unfortunately I have too many regs already so I just can't buy anything more. Maybe someone nearby will have one that I can borrow sometime and then surreptitiously take apart.

"Quality" in regulators is a bit complex IMO. There's breathing performance, reliability both in terms of how it works on individual dives and how long it holds up between rebuilds, and longevity of service over years of use. On this last point, HOG simply hasn't been around long enough to be fairly evaluated. We'll see in thirty years how they're holding up next to MK5s that are 60 years old.

That said, I'm not that impressed with SP's newer offerings and I certainly realize that the sales structure and pricing on some of these things are absurd. I feel that most regulator companies have really lost their way in the last decade or so by constantly 'upgrading' models (typically with stupid or needless changes) and catering to hype-inducing gimmicks. What happened to the idea that simplicity and longevity of design are desirable traits in regulators? Shouldn't divers, who are supposedly depending on this gear for their lives, respect the fact that there is something to be said for using a regulator model that has survived unchanged for decades and been continuously tested on many thousands of dives?

All right, end of old-guy-crotchity rant.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

.... On this last point, HOG simply hasn't been around long enough to be fairly evaluated. We'll see in thirty years how they're holding up next to.

I am more worried about how I will be holding up in 30 years than a damn regulator... Seriously,