Recreational rebreathers - what is holding them back?

[DennisS]

MY post was rubbish? How so? I don't quite understand how a post that is a poll asking why rebreathers haven't gone mainstream yet is rubbish?

Sorry, bad punctuation, should have had quotes

the original post was, "why haven't rebreathers gone mainstream"

I think its a good poll. One of the reasons I think is the rebreathers reputation of being unforgiving to the careless. I think almost every rec diver out there remembers doing something careless and chalking it up to experience.

 

[bruehlt]

Good responses....thanks....

Assuming cost is not object, how would rec divers benefit *tremendously*?

1. Less gear - less gear to carry around.
2. Less weight - from less gear
3. No problems with "dry mouth" - recycled breathing gas is not dry
4. Staying warmer - compressed air is cooler, dryer. Recycled breathing gas is warm and moist.
5. Minimal maintenance / time between dives - I can prep my gear in less time it takes the rest of the boat to do another dive (fill air, off-gas time - due to managing the PO, etc)

I see these as great benefits - easier, less cumbersome diving.

 

[caveseeker7]

Anyway, enough of beating around that dead horse.

I think it is a definately cost matter. Don't you want to get out of a sick and tired of LDS threats, such as regulator service, air threats, and any warranty issues?

Well, with rebreathers you still have LDS threads, though usually manufacturer threads.
First and second stages still need servicing, tanks still need their inspections and testing.
And warranty issues do arise from time to time.

But a few thoughts on 'recreational rebreathers'.

All currently available cmf-SCRs are marketed as recreational rebreathers.

Those are the Dräger Dolphin, OMG Azimuth and Submatix ST100. All three of them have CE certification to 40 msw and are designed for single mix nitrox use. The Dolphin, and it's predecessor, the Atlantis, have been around the longest, and with quite some success. The Submatx is about to be introduced at DEMA to the US market, so that unit is pretty late ... probably too late. The Azi, while a step up from the Dolphin, is rather large and heavy (about as much as the average CCR) and at $4500 also fairly expensive for what it does.

CCRs are considerably more capable machines and were originally marketed for commercial diving and military diving. Scientists, explorers and filmmakers were among the first 'civilians' to use them. Technical divers in general turned to them ever since the more affordable Inspiration was introduced in '97.

Today, several CCRs are available and marketed for recreational use.
The Sport Kiss, the APD Evolution, the ISC Megalodon. All have small scrubbers with limited ratings that make them best suited for recreational depths. And by all means the are successful rebreathers. The Sport Kiss was introduced less than a year ago and sold over 80 units and for the Evolution there is a months long waiting list.

Which, by the way, is probably another reason they are not more successful. Availability.
Both in general as well as in your LDS. Unless you're lucky to live in one of the handfull locations where you can actually go see and try one it's a much tougher sale.

And still most all units have waiting periods, frequently several months, as most manufacturers can sell every unit they can build ... before they ever do.

 

[BigJetDriver]

Dennis,

The sea and the sky can be very unforgiving environments for the unwary and the uncaring. Murphy's Law always applies! :11:

Diving a re-breather is far less dangerous than driving down the expressway (any expressway) where you live.

Think of it like flying an airplane. It allows you to go farther, and see more. If you do what you are taught, and operate it in a sensible manner, and react to any problems the way you should, it is very safe.

If you are stupid, or unwary, it WILL kill you. On the other hand, if you are stupid or unwary, any kind of diving will kill you!

To paraphrase Mr. Natural: "Get the right training for the job, kids!! :doctor: )

 

[caveseeker7]

One of the reasons I think is the rebreathers reputation of being unforgiving to the careless.

And that, Dennis, is an excellent observation!

Especially here in the US, where mindlessness is usually awarded big time by civil justce system.
The laws (or actually lack thereof) protect stupid people well and endorse irresponsibility.

And unlike the courts, rebreathers don't.

 

[BigJetDriver]

As I said, the SEA is very unforgiving to the careless! As is the AIR! :11:

SEA my post above!

 

[caveseeker7]

Rebrather purchase prices, those are still fairly high in comparisson to OC as well as many if not most budgets. They have dropped over units available in the past, but I doubt they'll get any less expensive than they currently are.

Early CCR systems (and I mean systems, not just units) sold for $30,000.
The first recreational rebreather, the Dräger Atlantis, sold for a whopping $6,000.
Early eCCRs sold to technical divers and explorers, like the civillian MK15.5, Cis-Lunar and Undersea Technologies rigs sold beetween $15,000 and $20,000.

And that, while prohibitively expensive for most divers, it wasn't as much as the military paid (and pays) for their units that only differ in some non-magnetic hardware (worth around $10K): $50,000 - 60,000 ! :11: (That's where the $$$ are, and no liability!)
No wonder that most manufacturers called it quits after a while.

It wasn't until the Inspiration that CCRs have become affordable. The lowest price I remeber here in the US is $6,200, less than half of what earlier units had required. And went on to be a huge success with continuing production and thousands in use.

Prices have gone up a bit in those 8 years, and improvements were made.
The Inspiration, PRISM and Megs all start in the same $7,500 - $8,000 range.

Deco integrated and fully optioned APD and ISC units go for around $10,000
while the manually controlled Jetsam CCRs can be had for about half that.

So why do I think prices won't drop? Simple, really. Costs. Profit. Liability.

Quite a bit of research and development goes into scrubbers and electronics, time and money that needs to be recovered. Somebody needs to get paid for it, no matter who does it. Same for testing, especially CE certification.

Units build with injection moulded parts require expensive moulds. Units build from machined parts require a lot of labor.

Most manufacturers are very small companies. A couple of principles, a couple of full time employees. Think about it, even two full time employees at $50K a year cost (at least) $100K annually. You sell 100 units, that's $1K/unit just for the two guys in the shop ... you build only fifty rigs the labor cost just doubled!

Add productions costs for materials, machines, space, maintainance ... . Add costs of doing business.

Add the priciples who need to make a living and by all means should make a profit.

The shop or instructor selling it usually gets some money, too.

And suddenly, while high, the price of a CCR doesn't seem all that unreasonable anymore.

 

[caveseeker7]

SEA my post above!

You've been reading too many of my posts, my friend.

 

[jptrealty]

believe me I do, funny stuff though, how are things going in So Cal?? I may be heading out there for Biz, any sugestions as to wrecks to dive?? In LA or San D.??

Thanks





QUOTE=caveseeker7]Sad, but true. Have had the same experience once or twice. :bluthinki


And we learn to live with it:
Wear sun glasses that change the sky's color and drysuits, don't listen to women, lie right back and spend less money on them.
Ain't life great! [/QUOTE]

 

[jepuskar]

I have thought long and hard on this subject over the last few days. I even called off work to spend more time thinking....

I have the answer. Colors!!! Rebreathers dont come in enough colors to appeal to the general diving public. sure you can paint some of it or put a sticker on it, but who wants to do that....we need more stock colors.

Freakin brilliant!!!