Rebreather for tech diving, need suggestion's

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Im just getting into the rebreather seen here, and looking for some help, and have a few question's being everyone here in this part of the fourm knows what there talking about with this :

1. I own 3 set's of doubles, a few deco bottles, and 5 reg's to do a 180' dive, and look at my equipment and see over 10k sitting there, im starting to wonder why dosn't everyone who tech dives use a rebreather?

From what i can see, and little research i did, there really not much more then what i have invested into ALL my gear right now to go deep, and now after reading people tying in there VR3 computer's , and all the research so far that i have done, there seem to be many advantages to a closed circut rebreather, and also have many advantages from what i can see. So the question is being im new to rebreahter's, but really considering buying a rebreather here withen the next 4-6 month's for deep dive's, is what are the pro's and con's to diving one against open circut? Also as im am siging up for a Tri-mix course soon as well, how expensive do they run once needing a unit to do that type of diving? Also what about "bail out" and Redundancy?

I also been researching home made unit's as well, as i have a friend that i dive with all the time, who also want's to go the rebreather route,and has spent hour's researching these home made unit's , ( who is also very capable of making one of this unit's)
also is looking into the advantage's as well with diving a closed circut rebreather.

I know this is alot to ask, and any help would be appreciated, as it just seem's to me, why would one want to dive 200' and have 4-5 tanks straped to him, all these different regs to breath off of for different gases, when it look's to me you can strap one of these baby's on and go!!

Also are they pratical for 50' - 60' reef dives as well? Is this somthing that everyone who own's one dives for all different applactions? As i do all types of diving, i would want somthing i could use all around, is this possible? Thank's, for your time to respond, as i am REALLY looking to go this route soon, and it look's better and better the more i read!!!

 

[caveseeker7]

I ... at my equipment and see over 10k sitting there, im starting to wonder why dosn't everyone who tech dives use a rebreather?

I ask myself the same thing.

The answer is probably a combination of several reasons:
- the 10K are already spend
- initial expense for unit and training
- many divers, especially tech divers, don't like the idea of "starting over"
- rebreathers are more time consuming before and after the dive
- they add additional tasks during the dive
- too many fatalities scare divers away
- they don't know enough about them
Those came to mind imidiately, there are probably more.

For information about rebreathers, read Jeff Bozanic's "Mastering Rebreathers", which gives you all the basics you need to know. IANTD's "Rebreather FUNdamentals" CD (from IANTD or sold through e-bay) also covers a lot of ground, while Mad Dog Expedition's "Rebreathers Vol. I" explains 5 different units in detail: The Cis-Lunar MK-5p (out of production, but worth seeing), the MK15 (same, fairly frequently found used), the Dräger Dolphin SCR, the Ambient Pressure Diving Inspiration and the Steam Machines Prism Topaz. Plus additional general info. Also, sifting through the archives here and at The Deco Stop can get you quite some info, if you read past the bickering.
Other websites are Rebreathers Worlwide and The Rebreather Website for general info, Ron Micjan's site for teardowns and Dave Sutton's for more info (especially projects).
Don't miss Richard Pyle's RB page and Learner's Guide .
For Inspiration info and a commendable collection on fatalities of that unit visit Diver Mole , for other fatalities . There is much to learn from them.

As for currently available models, pretty much every CCR has been used for extended range dives. The Inspiration is the most popular and widely sold unit, and used for tech diving regularly. Have a look at Diver Mole's questionaire regarding profiles. The Megalodon has become quite popular in cave country, has successfully made it past 500 fsw and offers variable scrubber and tank sizes. The Prism has been around for several years and made it into caves and wrecks around the world and back. As you can see by my avatar, it's my choice for a variety of reasons. The MK series is still around and going strong, a 15.5 just set the new depth record to 889 fsw. Even the manually controlled KISS has racked up a pretty good record and been past 300 ft.
Other units, like the Ouroboros, should join the market next year.

Best I can tell you is look at all the rigs available, preferably in real, try-dive the ones you like. Compare the engineering and features and decide what you want and need from your unit. I tend to back away from people telling me get 'x' without any intelligent reasoning behind it ... even if they use it, you don't know how and why they chose it.

I'd stay away from DIY unless you really know what you're doing, and how to do it. It's easy to build a rebreather, but it's hard to build a very good one.

Your location is great as training isn't an issue.

You'll still need some of your OC gear for bailout, and for tech profiles will still need to haul a lot of gear around.

Stefan

 

[padiscubapro]

Im just getting into the rebreather seen here, and looking for some help, and have a few question's being everyone here in this part of the fourm knows what there talking about with this :

1. I own 3 set's of doubles, a few deco bottles, and 5 reg's to do a 180' dive, and look at my equipment and see over 10k sitting there, im starting to wonder why dosn't everyone who tech dives use a rebreather?

From what i can see, and little research i did, there really not much more then what i have invested into ALL my gear right now to go deep, and now after reading people tying in there VR3 computer's , and all the research so far that i have done, there seem to be many advantages to a closed circut rebreather, and also have many advantages from what i can see. So the question is being im new to rebreahter's, but really considering buying a rebreather here withen the next 4-6 month's for deep dive's, is what are the pro's and con's to diving one against open circut? Also as im am siging up for a Tri-mix course soon as well, how expensive do they run once needing a unit to do that type of diving? Also what about "bail out" and Redundancy?

I also been researching home made unit's as well, as i have a friend that i dive with all the time, who also want's to go the rebreather route,and has spent hour's researching these home made unit's , ( who is also very capable of making one of this unit's)
also is looking into the advantage's as well with diving a closed circut rebreather.

I know this is alot to ask, and any help would be appreciated, as it just seem's to me, why would one want to dive 200' and have 4-5 tanks straped to him, all these different regs to breath off of for different gases, when it look's to me you can strap one of these baby's on and go!!

Also are they pratical for 50' - 60' reef dives as well? Is this somthing that everyone who own's one dives for all different applactions? As i do all types of diving, i would want somthing i could use all around, is this possible? Thank's, for your time to respond, as i am REALLY looking to go this route soon, and it look's better and better the more i read!!!

I will stay away from specific Rbs since most CCRs are more than capable formost needs..

I started as an OC diver and did tech dives on it for many many years, about 4 years ago I switched fulltime to a CCR and would never go back.. I use a CCR for all my dives, there are only a few situations where I'll use OC, mainly if I'm teaching a basic OW class..

If you dive deep alot (trimix) the rebreather pays for itself quite fast. For nitrogen based diving its about the same cost as using nitrox.

The rb has several advantages, the first being breathing warm moist gas, you can do very long dives without the "coton mouth" effects you get from OC and you tend to stay warmer.
On a CCR you are always breathing the optimal mix for your depth. The maintenance is not as bad as most nay sayers preech.. On a dive boat I have in general less work than an OC diver.. I do have to predive the unit before each dive but its very quick.. While all the oc divers are trying to change their rigs between dives, I just sit back and relax..

Downside - You are starting from scratch, all you OC experience means squat.. A fast way to hurt or kill yourself is to assume just because you were doing 200fsw dives on OC you can do them on a RB.. The optimal bailout from a CCR is not going OC..

I routinely do dives now I wouldn't even consider on OC.. A common dive I do with my CCR trimix students is a 100m dive for 30 minutes, This is definately a dive I wouldn't do on OC unless the conditions were perfect for it..

Bailout..

You need to carry OC bailout, for most situations you can get away with alot less especially if you use a team planning concept. IF you dive solo you need to carry more bailout and solo RB diving should only be done by those VERY experienced RB divers.. The risk is higher diving solo over OC solo.

When I dive with other CCR divers I'll typically carry a 40cf with bottom breathable gas and a 40cf with 50% nitrox. IF I'mwith OC tec students I'll sling an 80cf of each instead.

I find the only time my bailout bottles get used is when I decide to run drills or have to donate to an OC diver.. I end up having to dump my gas once a year to do a VIP rather than ever using it..

If you are considering CCRs for deep stuff here are some general recommendations..

The Inspiration is very effective and easy to get training and units quickly.. Lots of people doing 100m dives worldwide. Itns not a perfect RB but Parts, Training and support are very easy to come buy.

The megladon - a very solid unit, lots of tech dives being done on it.. delievery time is getting much better,repair parts are usually deleivered quickly, support is growing.

The "classic" KISS, a fairly simple and streamlined unit, great for recreational and moderate technical diving. Delievery time is pretty good. Kim and gordon are wonderful to deal with and deseve their growing sucess.

When I travel I see lots of Inspirations, a meg here and there, and an occasional KISS.. Other than special events I have never seen any other CCRs in my travels.

There are other units out there with lots of potential.. most notibly off my list is the PRISM mainly because of the very long lead times and limited availability (while traveling) of parts. The unit has some nice features but until units can be regularly delievered (at worse case) within a few months of order, its not on my list yet.. They do offer units while a person's is being built (the only company that does this), but I personally I rather not be responsible for someone else's gear, and since its not Your gear, you might have an issue with insurance if its stolen, but if your not in a hurry for one it still worth a look.

 

[J1M1]

I would have a look at the new Dive Rite CCR. It may be out relatively shortly for a reasonable price. ie- cheaper than the other ccr's. will have deco electronics from j marine.

 

[caveseeker7]

It may be out relatively shortly for a reasonable price.

What's "relatively shortly" in the rebreather world?
Right after "may"?

So far all to look at is a prototype that will differ from the production unit ... not even a pre-production unit. In other words not really much to look at.

And at the pace Juergensen delivers HH "shortly" seems out of place. A friend of mine has been waiting for almost a year, and only keeps waiting because he's already invested in it.

APD has been promising the Evo for years, OMG the Nemesis.
I'd say take a look at current (and past if just for learning purposes) rigs, if the purchase is down the road take another look at that time. But waiting for a new rebreather to happen is nuts.

 

[mempilot]

This was a great post. I am also thinking of making the switch to CCR. You answered many of the exploratory questions I had as well. Does anyone know who sells the Inspiration and Megladon in SE FL?

I will stay away from specific Rbs since most CCRs are more than capable formost needs..

I started as an OC diver and did tech dives on it for many many years, about 4 years ago I switched fulltime to a CCR and would never go back.. I use a CCR for all my dives, there are only a few situations where I'll use OC, mainly if I'm teaching a basic OW class..

[snip]

 

[caveseeker7]

... most notibly off my list is the PRISM mainly because of the very long lead times and limited availability (while traveling) of parts.

Parts availability?
If the location you're at can receive FedEx or UPS than you'll get Prism parts just as soon as they can be delivered.
The same as for the Meg and KISS.

You make it sound like you can just waltz into your LDS for a replacement handset for an Inspiration ... I have yet to see any stores carrying APD spares worth mentioning. If they support CCRs they'll like have a couple of sensors on the shelf, but that's supplies, not parts.
Even Dräger parts aren't usually stocked by Aqualung dealers.

 

[padiscubapro]

And at the pace Juergensen delivers HH "shortly" seems out of place. A friend of mine has been waiting for almost a year, and only keeps waiting because he's already invested in it..

Stephan what type of HH is your friend waiting for??

Kevin has been delievering standard HH pretty fast now, in fact there was a guy asking questions on various lists about the HH (his first post on tge inspiration list was around the middle of october) and he is already diving it.

I only know of 1 person who doesn't have a unit (and has been waiting a while) and there is a big issue behind it(I have also heard both sides of the story to some extent).. PM me the persons name and if it is who I think it is I'll tell you what is going on.. I have been aware of it for sometime, and its been hinted in various HH posts, but its not for public discussion..

 

[caveseeker7]

...but its not for public discussion

Sounds about right, pm send.

 

[Life-Is-Good-Diver]

Sounds about right, pm send.

Thanks caveseeker7 and padiscubapro, your input's answered alot of questions i had, and are very helpfull, i'll be printing them out and adding them to my rebreather folder so when i do decide to buy one, which will be withen the next 4-6 months for sure, i thought by then i would have researched CCR enough to make a choice one which one to buy.

Im not ready to do 100m yet, espicalley if i have to get used to diving a CCR first, as ive only been diving the past year and a half past rec limit's, but would like to go to a CCR as i progress into more deeper dives, and start to take my mixed gas classes.

Which is another topic, but what i thought would be to start on a CCR and dive it till i know it inside and out, get used to it, keeping myself well withen rec limits, use it for reef dives, and wreck dives, then as i progress with it, and feel comfortable and are no longer diving with the rebreather on my mind, and at some time progress into diving a CCR with the dive profiles im now doing on open circut.

Many of the advantages you had mentioned i have thought alot about, and there are many more it seems to me.

Thanks for the link's also, as im researching them all as well, some great link's, but im definatley looking foward to starting the road of using a CCR here shortley, and enjoying all the benfit's of diving a CCR , thanks again!!

PS, What kind of software are you using for CCR's to do you dive planning with?

Thanks!!