a22shady
Contributor
Spare Air is a waste, Don't confuse the New diver any more, We actually would like people if they are going to do something to Do it Right.
Pony, Octo, or both?
- Thread starter senseiern
- Start date
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Graeme Tolton
Contributor
I am not suggesting that a new diver get into doubles... I am saying that he should be doing his equipment buying for the long term, not the short term impulse buys. The truth is that some dive shops are full of useless junk (spareair comes to mind). I am suggesting that the OP should be doing all the research he can on what gear to buy so he is not stuck with worthless junk later on.
muddysquirrel
Registered
Not to derail the always amusing Spare Air rant, but back to the OP's question.
senseiern, you ask about adding gear to "improve your risk management". Risk management is a vital and constantly evolving requirement of diving... but adding gear is only one component. Managing risk, to me, is about a) preventing problems and b) solving problems. While adding gear can, at times, aid in solving problems... training will help you prevent problems.
Every diver has a limited amount of brainpower and can handle a certain number of tasks with that. As you train more and dive more, you become more comfortable, have to think less about each individual task, and can handle more. If you exceed your maximum task load, even if you are Jacques Cousteau reincarnated, you will drop tasks.
Personally, I manage risk by managing my task load. If a dive has the potential to require more tasks than I can manage, I will not do that dive. The beauty of a buddy is that they can, in an emergency, handle some of your tasks for you (e.g. entanglement)... thus reducing your load.
As a beginning diver, buoyancy, trim, air consumption, weighting, finning, and making sure that rental equipment is adjusted just right will eat up a significant portion of your task allowance.... just as it did when I and everyone else started. Then your instructor adds skills.
Adding a pony bottle, particularly a slung bottle, to the mix adds one more task for you to manage. In this case, particularly under the close supervision of your checkout dives, I would suggest that adding another task to your load will cause you more problems than the redundancy of an extra tank will solve.
After all, you already have a second tank... it's on your buddy's back. You know it's turned on and working because he's breathing off it and, because you're diving recreational limits, you're a CESA away from the great air tank on the surface if all hell breaks loose. Yes, there are horror stories about inattentive buddies swimming away... but if you notice there are very few stories about a buddy sticking close to you, then swimming away for the first time the instant you have a spontaneous OOG emergency. If you prevent the problem, by a) watching your gas consumption b) taking care of your gear c) inspecting it thoroughly before each dive d) staying near your buddy (the responsibility to stay together is the buddy team's... not one diver or the other's).... then solving an OOG becomes very easy. Remember, you're trusting yourself to avoid the problem in the first place; you're trusting your buddy to bail you out if you screw up.
A pony has its place... particularly in cold water as you allude to. There, if your first stage freezes, bailing out to your pony and shutting down your main tank quickly will often allow the water to warm up your first stage, letting you switch back and continue the dive. [Though strictly from a safety point of view, many advocate ending the dive as soon as you have to tap your pony.] In this case using a pony avoids increasing the demand and adiabatic cooling on your buddy's first stage, making it less likely to freeze in turn. It also requires you diving in pretty cold water, calmly switching regs amidst a flood of bubbles, and still keeping your breathing rate low enough to avoid over-breathing the pony reg as well.
Once again, I would suggest this is loading beyond your current task threshold... as well as much cooler water than you will want to dive at first.
To paraphrase TS&M, you can either dive solo or trust your buddies [and from her conduct and knowledge on this board, I would be inclined to trust her recommendation of buddies]. At this point, I would respectfully suggest you are not qualified to dive solo. If you can't trust your classmates, trust your instructor. If you can't trust your instructor... please complete your class somewhere else.
Once you are comfortable in the water and can manage the tasks you are likely to see currently (e.g. do a mask flood and clear while maintaining trim, depth, and swimming), if you still see the need for a pony, by all means add it. But right now I think you're overestimating the problems it will solve and underestimating those it will cause (particularly if you sling it).
senseiern, you ask about adding gear to "improve your risk management". Risk management is a vital and constantly evolving requirement of diving... but adding gear is only one component. Managing risk, to me, is about a) preventing problems and b) solving problems. While adding gear can, at times, aid in solving problems... training will help you prevent problems.
Every diver has a limited amount of brainpower and can handle a certain number of tasks with that. As you train more and dive more, you become more comfortable, have to think less about each individual task, and can handle more. If you exceed your maximum task load, even if you are Jacques Cousteau reincarnated, you will drop tasks.
Personally, I manage risk by managing my task load. If a dive has the potential to require more tasks than I can manage, I will not do that dive. The beauty of a buddy is that they can, in an emergency, handle some of your tasks for you (e.g. entanglement)... thus reducing your load.
As a beginning diver, buoyancy, trim, air consumption, weighting, finning, and making sure that rental equipment is adjusted just right will eat up a significant portion of your task allowance.... just as it did when I and everyone else started. Then your instructor adds skills.
Adding a pony bottle, particularly a slung bottle, to the mix adds one more task for you to manage. In this case, particularly under the close supervision of your checkout dives, I would suggest that adding another task to your load will cause you more problems than the redundancy of an extra tank will solve.
After all, you already have a second tank... it's on your buddy's back. You know it's turned on and working because he's breathing off it and, because you're diving recreational limits, you're a CESA away from the great air tank on the surface if all hell breaks loose. Yes, there are horror stories about inattentive buddies swimming away... but if you notice there are very few stories about a buddy sticking close to you, then swimming away for the first time the instant you have a spontaneous OOG emergency. If you prevent the problem, by a) watching your gas consumption b) taking care of your gear c) inspecting it thoroughly before each dive d) staying near your buddy (the responsibility to stay together is the buddy team's... not one diver or the other's).... then solving an OOG becomes very easy. Remember, you're trusting yourself to avoid the problem in the first place; you're trusting your buddy to bail you out if you screw up.
A pony has its place... particularly in cold water as you allude to. There, if your first stage freezes, bailing out to your pony and shutting down your main tank quickly will often allow the water to warm up your first stage, letting you switch back and continue the dive. [Though strictly from a safety point of view, many advocate ending the dive as soon as you have to tap your pony.] In this case using a pony avoids increasing the demand and adiabatic cooling on your buddy's first stage, making it less likely to freeze in turn. It also requires you diving in pretty cold water, calmly switching regs amidst a flood of bubbles, and still keeping your breathing rate low enough to avoid over-breathing the pony reg as well.
Once again, I would suggest this is loading beyond your current task threshold... as well as much cooler water than you will want to dive at first.
To paraphrase TS&M, you can either dive solo or trust your buddies [and from her conduct and knowledge on this board, I would be inclined to trust her recommendation of buddies]. At this point, I would respectfully suggest you are not qualified to dive solo. If you can't trust your classmates, trust your instructor. If you can't trust your instructor... please complete your class somewhere else.
Once you are comfortable in the water and can manage the tasks you are likely to see currently (e.g. do a mask flood and clear while maintaining trim, depth, and swimming), if you still see the need for a pony, by all means add it. But right now I think you're overestimating the problems it will solve and underestimating those it will cause (particularly if you sling it).
mpgunner
Contributor
I dive with a great bunch of buddies so I look at how can a get to my buddy if I need to. Spare Air starts to look good. Not to surface but to just to get to my buddy (even if around 120ft).
Take it slow and evaluate each piece of equipment before you buy it. It's early in the game for you to be able to make an educated choice as you have seen from the BCD BP/wing thread people have strong beliefs which does not necesarily make them right.
You should always dive with a safe second or octo on your main cylinder, your safe second should be equal to if not better than your primary, chances are that an OOA diver will be breathing off your primary and you will be using the safe second.
The pony/stage debate is just as bad as the BP/Wing debate, many strong opinions. First off it should be a while before you are diving in conditions where you need an alternate air source. When you are ready my recommendation would be for you to sling a stage bottle, either a 30 or 40 cubic ft ali bottle, if you have decided to go the BP/wing route this will be dead simple, if you choose a BCD you may have to do some tweaking to make it work. The benefits of a slung stage are that you can easily see the SPG without convoluted hose routings, the second stage stows easily for deployment, you can hand the bottle off to another diver, there are less entanglement issues than wearing a backmounted pony, you only need to charge the second stage then turn it off as opposed to a pony which needs to be turned on at the beginning of the dive and left on, and as always this choice of diving will grow with you whichever direction you choose to follow.
OldNSalty
Contributor
Dr Wu
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And that clearly illustrates how absurd this pony bottle stuff has become.
Here is another thread started by a new diver that has absolutely no idea what an octo is for... yet is positive they "need" a pony bottle to dive safely.
OP
senseiern
Contributor
What I was taught is that a pony is for personal use in case something goes wrong with your primary air source. I was taught the primary use for a standard octo was for a buddy to use if he has an air supply issue. And, rather than using a pony to go look for your buddy, it is to head to the surface.
Dr. I am completyely open to be corrected. What am i missing? Of course before I use a pony, I would be trained properly on it.
Dr. I am completyely open to be corrected. What am i missing? Of course before I use a pony, I would be trained properly on it.
Dr Wu
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You are correct. Therefore you would use your buddy's octo in the case of an emergency.
eelnoraa
Contributor
Don't load yourself up with unnecessary gears, especially if you are not even certified. You have only read about diving. When you go OW, you will realize there are so many things to handle already. Having to deal with a pony make things even harder. In fact, I am not even sure your instructor will let you use pony on OW class.
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