PADI Self Reliant vs SDI Solo

[tursiops]

I've always thought it bizarre that SDI decided to accept a Spare Air as an acceptable redundant gas supply. I could do a direct ascent to the surface from 90 ft, at 30 ft/min, at twice my usual RMV, that's it. I guess I could carry a half dozen of them instead of my 19 cf pony

I guess they figured a Spare-Air was better than nothing, but it is kinda like trying to jump across a chasm in two jumps.

 

[stuartv]

I've always thought it bizarre that SDI decided to accept a Spare Air as an acceptable redundant gas supply. I could do a direct ascent to the surface from 90 ft, at 30 ft/min, at twice my usual RMV, that's it. I guess I could carry a half dozen of them instead of my 19 cf pony

If you disallow a Spare-Air, what is the formula for what is allowed and what is not? What do you do when someone comes along with an incredibly low SAC and says that they can do the same ascent on a Spare-Air that you're allowing some total airhog to do on an AL19?

If the standard is to make sure they know how to figure out what is "right" for them and a Spare-Air is adequate for the dives planned as checkout dives, what is the real basis for not allowing one?

I mean, you can't control what people use for equipment after the class is over. So, having an arbitrary rule that allows one size but not another seems pointless. If someone has a Spare-Air and they didn't learn enough in the class to convince them not to rely on it, then how does making them rent an AL40 for the class help them? The point seems to me to be to make sure they know how to figure out a reasonable estimate for the volume of gas they might need. And to make sure they know how to actually deploy and use it if necessary. Among other things.

 

[stuartv]

It is a better course than SDI Solo in two ways: 3 dives are required (instead of just 2 in SDI), and the redundant air source cannot be a Spare-Air.

You think making someone rent a bigger bottle than a Spare-Air in order to do the checkout dives makes it a better course?

I am not a Solo instructor, so my opinion is worth what you're paying for it. But, I have kind of adopted the philosophy that my Solo instructor imparted to me: If you have the skills and experience to be certified to dive solo, then 2 checkout dives is plenty to demonstrate that. And if you don't have the skills and experience, then learning whatever it is you need to learn and doing 3 dives is not enough to prepare you.

What he actually said to me, when I first asked about Solo, was "I'm not going to teach you how to do dive Solo. I'm going to verify that you already have the knowledge and skills to dive solo. If you don't, then you aren't ready to be certified for Solo." In other words, you should learn the skills and get the experience while diving in a buddy context. After you have developed all the skills and practiced with them enough (more than 3 dives), then you might be ready to get a Solo cert.

In which case, 3 dives doesn't really seem to be any better than 2 dives, to me.

 

[scubadada]

If you disallow a Spare-Air, what is the formula for what is allowed and what is not? What do you do when someone comes along with an incredibly low SAC and says that they can do the same ascent on a Spare-Air that you're allowing some total airhog to do on an AL19?

If the standard is to make sure they know how to figure out what is "right" for them and a Spare-Air is adequate for the dives planned as checkout dives, what is the real basis for not allowing one?

I mean, you can't control what people use for equipment after the class is over. So, having an arbitrary rule that allows one size but not another seems pointless. If someone has a Spare-Air and they didn't learn enough in the class to convince them not to rely on it, then how does making them rent an AL40 for the class help them? The point seems to me to be to make sure they know how to figure out a reasonable estimate for the volume of gas they might need. And to make sure they know how to actually deploy and use it if necessary. Among other things.

Right, teach gas planning. I can spend a minute at depth, ascend at a normal rate from 130 ft, have a 3 minute safety stop, all at twice my normal RMV, using a 19 cf pony. Everyone should be able to make a similar statement.

 

[stuartv]

Right, teach gas planning. I can spend a minute at depth, ascend at a normal rate from 130 ft, have a 3 minute safety stop, all at twice my normal RMV, using a 19 cf pony. Everyone should be able to make a similar statement.

Agreed. Particularly if each person's statement is allowed to be relevant to their intended dive plans. E.g. if they never intend to dive solo deeper than, say, 60' the min gas they need would clearly be quite a bit smaller. Really, if you learn how to plan gas properly, you can choose a redundant gas volume that works specifically for each dive you do. Diving to 130 today? Take an AL19. Diving a 30' reef? Maybe a Spare Air is fine.

 

[uncfnp]

Much is made about the standards and equipment but IMHO the most important part of a solo class is the mental preparation, focus and attitude for solo. My SDI Solo had this. If the PADI class also fosters the solo diver mentality then I agree, they are more alike then not. If the PADI class does not have the mental focus as solo at its core, then it is not an equalivant course. Diving self reliant with a buddy is not the same as solo.

 

[tursiops]

You think making someone rent a bigger bottle than a Spare-Air in order to do the checkout dives makes it a better course?

I am not a Solo instructor, so my opinion is worth what you're paying for it. But, I have kind of adopted the philosophy that my Solo instructor imparted to me: If you have the skills and experience to be certified to dive solo, then 2 checkout dives is plenty to demonstrate that. And if you don't have the skills and experience, then learning whatever it is you need to learn and doing 3 dives is not enough to prepare you.

What he actually said to me, when I first asked about Solo, was "I'm not going to teach you how to do dive Solo. I'm going to verify that you already have the knowledge and skills to dive solo. If you don't, then you aren't ready to be certified for Solo." In other words, you should learn the skills and get the experience while diving in a buddy context. After you have developed all the skills and practiced with them enough (more than 3 dives), then you might be ready to get a Solo cert.

In which case, 3 dives doesn't really seem to be any better than 2 dives, to me.

Did your instructor actually teach you anything? Or just "check you out"?
I'm stunned that you bought his line....and presumably paid his price.

 

[scubadada]

Did your instructor actually teach you anything? Or just "check you out"?
I'm stunned that you bought his line....and presumably paid his price.

My SDI solo course was just fine. What new things were they supposed to teach me after 750 dives, many of which were solo? We did one fin swimming, swimming without a mask, deploying a SMB, switching to pony, deploying SMB off pony, don and doff on bottom, don and doff midwater (much easier). So now I can dive solo. I have dived solo with operators who know me for many years. Certification has allowed me to dive solo with operators who do not know me, this is invaluable.

 

[tursiops]

My SDI solo course was just fine. What new things were they supposed to teach me after 750 dives, many of which were solo? We did one fin swimming, swimming without a mask, deploying a SMB, switching to pony, deploying SMB off pony, don and doff on bottom, don and doff midwater (much easier). So now I can dive solo. I have dived solo with operators who know me for many years. Certification has allowed me to dive solo with operators who do not know me, this is invaluable.

My Solo class was just fine too, back in 2001. I've now taught it numerous times. I think the PADI version is better; not everybody already knows everything, even though many think they do, and the PADI version has greater demands on dive planning including gas consumption), which many people have never really done. My remark to Stuart was not about whether the class was any good, but rather trying to insinuate that perhaps his instructor was lax. One of the advantages of SDI classes is the instructor can add in considerable additional information to provide value, and if Stuart already knew everything about Solo, then the instructor apparently missed the opportunity to add value. He took the money and ran.

 

[MichaelMc]

Much is made about the standards and equipment but IMHO the most important part of a solo class is the mental preparation, focus and attitude for solo. My SDI Solo had this. If the PADI class also fosters the solo diver mentality then I agree, they are more alike then not. If the PADI class does not have the mental focus as solo at its core, then it is not an equalivant course. Diving self reliant with a buddy is not the same as solo.

Mindset seems a very big part of solo and mindset is hard to teach in a short class! Consider how long cave diver training is. So I see some justification of a short solo class being able to only achieve filling in a few missed points, a final polish, and a checkout. I'm not solo qual'd.