PADI Self Reliant vs SDI Solo

[richmonddiver]

Did your instructor actually teach you anything? Or just "check you out"?
I'm stunned that you bought his line....and presumably paid his price.

So what is the specific objection to stuartv's argument? It seems to me that if a person has sufficient skills and knowledge concerning activity x, then they should be able to conduct activity x properly.

 

[tursiops]

So what is the specific objection to stuartv's argument? It seems to me that if a person has sufficient skills and knowledge concerning activity x, then they should be able to conduct activity x properly.

OK, I'll try and explain again.
My initial problem is with Stuart's instructor: "you already know this stuff so I don't need to teach you anything" is a cop-out. There is *always* more to teach on any given subject. A good instructor will do that. Worse, although Stuart did not say, is the likelihood that said instructor charged the same for just doing checkouts, and not doing anything to teach anything.
My second problem is that Stuart bought this cop-out attitude and apparently has assimilated it.

 

[markmud]

The actual course standards for SDI Solo say this:



I'm curious what the PADI Self Reliant standards say (not what the web page about the course says).

SDI explicitly says the diver can dive solo. If PADI is a little more conservative and says something like "graduates are prepared to complete a dive alone" that may be all the subtle distinction the lawyers care about. PADI says (for example), if your buddy disappears, this course prepares you to safely finish the dive by yourself. That doesn't mean they are saying you are qualified to START and finish a dive alone. SDI is clearly saying you are qualified to start and end a dive alone.

Regardless of the actual course content, I suspect what the lawyers look at only comes down to what the agency specifically says you are qualified to do upon successful completion of the course. The lawyers are going to rely on the "experts" (i.e. the training agencies) to specify exactly what the diver is certified or qualified to do. The course content is, I think, pretty much irrelevant.

Hi Stuart,

Here is a brief description from PADI.com:

".. an experienced diver may want or need to make dives without a partner." "...you learn about potential risks of diving alone and the value of equipment redundancy..."
DISTINCTIVE SPECIALTY DIVER

What assertions have been made that are false?

What assertions have been made that are false? This thread is full of people who won't read a simple paragraph and then pronounce that PADI's S/R course is a buddy-diver course and not a solo course. I have read that PADI can't legally use the term Solo because of copy write infringement (I don't have the link...sorry for no citation).

Editing Note: I tried using a full quote from PADI and I guess that is a big no-no. I tried partial quotes and I guess that is a big no-no. I tried a link and I guess that is a no-no. Sorry about that.

Got dictionary? Look up "without." What does this phrase mean in plain English: ..."without a partner." Look up "alone". What does this phrase mean in plain English: " ...diving alone..."

While you are using narrative statements, your implication is that the S/R cert is suspect.

My instructor let me study off the PADI curriculum for the course. Trust me, it was and is a solo course.

I iterate: The S/R course is stigmatized by a disinformation campaign. The interagency wars continue.

I am a Bonaire surger. I have asked the Chairman if he is going to teach an SDI solo course. He wants to combine all of his courses with a "do'n'it neutral" class. Two redundant classes in one week is to much while my wife is diving alone. The first quick and easy chance I get to obtain an SDI solo cert, I will.

markm

 

[markmud]

If you disallow a Spare-Air, what is the formula for what is allowed and what is not? What do you do when someone comes along with an incredibly low SAC and says that they can do the same ascent on a Spare-Air that you're allowing some total airhog to do on an AL19?

If the standard is to make sure they know how to figure out what is "right" for them and a Spare-Air is adequate for the dives planned as checkout dives, what is the real basis for not allowing one?

I mean, you can't control what people use for equipment after the class is over. So, having an arbitrary rule that allows one size but not another seems pointless. If someone has a Spare-Air and they didn't learn enough in the class to convince them not to rely on it, then how does making them rent an AL40 for the class help them? The point seems to me to be to make sure they know how to figure out a reasonable estimate for the volume of gas they might need. And to make sure they know how to actually deploy and use it if necessary. Among other things.

Hi Stuart,

This post (above) is so right-on. A+ in my book.

So many stereotypes and so little time to debunk them.

If a qualified and experienced diver can't make a controlled ascent from less than 60' on a 3 cf pony...well, I don't know what to say (we are talking about 2 minutes). If a skilled diver can't control his/her emotions for two minutes of ascent...well, I don't know what to say. If a skilled diver has not practiced pony bottle ascents from depth to the point of knowing the procedure by wrote...well, I don't know what to say.

I don't recommend spare air at all. But I do use a 6 cf pony for benign shallow dives.

markm

 

[chrisch]

... I have read that PADI can't legally use the term Solo because of copy write infringement ...

I don't know where you read it but it is wrong, you cannot trademark such terms, other wise PADI could not refer to their badge collector speciality as "Master Scuba Diver" as this would be the property of the US Navy.

I have no reason to question and every reason to believe your statement that the PADI and SDI courses are very similar in content, if the core skills are universally agreed then this is logical, much as the majority of basic courses are essentially the same independent of the agency that is responsible for the formal structure of the classes and certification of the level of training.

The fact remains the same the quarries mentioned all require the SDI ticket, wrongly or rightly. Many injustices are hidden behind the nonsense of "insurance" and it's requirements just as the legal system is a convenient scapegoat for many people the world over seeking to escape the tyranny of common sense. I cannot imagine being sufficiently motivated to dive in a cold quarry full of rusty old scrap either alone or with another person to such a level that I would pay money and waste time doing a course in order to dive there. I can imagine doing a buddy-free course (whatever nomenclature you choose) that would ensure no one I care about is criticised or liable in any way for letting me dive alone if I were unfortunate enough to get into bother whilst diving alone. For that reason and that only I have thought about doing the course and this controversy leads me to the SDI course. This is inconvenient to me as the PADI one is far more widespread and available to me locally. I would not care if the course actively taught me anything or not as long as it achieved my objective.

 

[chrisch]

As an additional point of discussion and interest I found this post about the SDI course. I would like to ask if the PADI course requires the solo dive at the end with the time and navigation skills requirement? The UK dive centre mentioned is one of the few that allow solo diving.

Solo Diving? by Chris Askew - BSAC London No.1

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

I find that agencies try to name their courses a little differently. SSI has the Independent Diver course for example. All basically the same idea. I believe (someone correct me if I’m wrong) that SDI allows instructors to add more skills to their courses which with a good instructor results in a solid course. With PADI, a good instructor can apply a strict interpretation of mastery of the skills, but they cannot add any skills to the course. That is an important difference.

 

[tursiops]

I don't know where you read it but it is wrong, you cannot trademark such terms, other wise PADI could not refer to their badge collector speciality as "Master Scuba Diver" as this would be the property of the US Navy.

Well, actually, the US Navy has no Master Scuba Diver rating, just Master Diver.

As an additional point of discussion and interest I found this post about the SDI course. I would like to ask if the PADI course requires the solo dive at the end with the time and navigation skills requirement? The UK dive centre mentioned is one of the few that allow solo diving.

Solo Diving? by Chris Askew - BSAC London No.1

Yes, the last dive for PADI can be "indirectly supervised" which means the instructor can be on shore watching bubbles and checking that the nav and DSMB deployment are timed and located as planned.

I find that agencies try to name their courses a little differently. SSI has the Independent Diver course for example. All basically the same idea. I believe (someone correct me if I’m wrong) that SDI allows instructors to add more skills to their courses which with a good instructor results in a solid course. With PADI, a good instructor can apply a strict interpretation of mastery of the skills, but they cannot add any skills to the course. That is an important difference.

Actually, the PADI instructor can add information/skills too, but just cannot require them for certification.

 

[Morrisman]

Hi Morrisman,

I agree with you totally.

I am a better diver because of Self Reliant course.

It is too bad that S/R is stigmatized by false assertions.

markm

I agree there is a negative perception regarding solo diving.
But this negative perception is good to discourage most recreational divers from solo diving until they have the training, gear and skill set to do so.
Tech diving requires two systems of everything and self reliance. I am no longer comfortable diving with just one air system now that I have experienced the safety of backup systems.
I have also become aware that a dive buddy could be more of a risk than a benefit. Choose wisely. Be prepared.
Many of my dives include focusing on helping my buddy to dive safe, take their time, to feel comfortable and enjoy their dive.

 

[chrisch]

...
Yes, the last dive for PADI can be "indirectly supervised" which means the instructor can be on shore watching bubbles and checking that the nav and DSMB deployment are timed and located as planned..

Thanks for that feedback. Just makes the whole thing more annoying/silly.