PADI Master Diver Certification

[Walter]

Not my point at all. If someone prefers that method of learning, why put him down?

 

[FIXXERVI6]

It's supposed to be fun loosebits; do you want them to take their $ and go skiing?

Thats part of the problem, have to market to what people want *sigh* like I said fast food and fast cars.

As far as suppose to be fun, look at how many OW divers never return because they didn't have fun, they were not ready for OW check outs and they did not have fun.

 

[Walter]

It's supposed to be fun loosebits; do you want them to take their $ and go skiing?

Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[MikeFerrara]

It's supposed to be fun loosebits; do you want them to take their $ and go skiing?

If they learn the right stuff up front it makes diving easier and more fun. It makes learning easier and more fun and it makes teaching easier and more fun. Still why would I care if they decided to go skiing instead? I'd rather see money spent on skiing than donated to PADI or the average PADI brainwashed dive shop.

The problem is that most instructors and agencies haven't tried anything else. They just assume that they have identified the best way, though, from personal experience, I don't believe that they have.

Are you an instructor? If you are, try some of what some of us are suggesting. If it doesn't work or help then by all means come on here and tell every one that we are full of **** and that you prefer 5 hours in the pool and certifying bouncing divers who have never done a dive other than bouncing around in a pack mindlessly following the instructor.

 

[loosebits]

We could go on and on,,,,but I think both of us have other things more constructive to do---agreed.
My point is that when you achieve what is accepted within the scuba diving community as standard practices for certification and have been 'carded' such within the recreational Pro level and mixed gas tech level,,,then you can speak from the side of --I been there and done that,,,not just the side of guessing and speculation better know of late as 'no...but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express'. I don't know the shop you are refering to,,,but can speak from experience that my LDS preforms O2 cleaning of tanks/valves/regs,,,,and does provide PP blending of EAN and TMx to customers,,,,but as in any shop... they reserve the right to not preform those services at their descression. Anyone trully wanting to be a mixed gas tech diver,,should go get certified,,,if I were wanting to get into full cave diving,,,I would not just read a few books and go out and play in a cave!

Debra just let me know that your shop does do O2 cleaning, just not mine. Not sure if that's a liability issue because I'm pp blending or if it's because I've pissed them off too much. It's a shame, they are the most conveniently located.

Wreck, cave, ice and night diving all fall into the same group. These are skills you can't learn from reading a book. They are physically different than OW diving. In each I must do some number of dives to become comfortable with the new environment and/or gear.

Parts of advanced nitrox falls into this category too due to the introduction of the SMB/lift bag and the gas switching (and diving doubles if not already exposed to it), probably the most dangerous activity for the advanced diver.

There are other classes that are purely theory provided the student has really learned what all his other cards says he has learned.

Nitrox: Assuming the student was skilled enough in OW to be able to stay above the MOD, there is absolutely no difference between diving nitrox and air. The nitrox diver just needs to be able to perform the skills they learned in OW. It's just the consequences of failing those skills have increased.

Trimix (single deco gas): Assuming the student can perform all of the skills learned in advanced nitrox, there is nothing different here except like nitrox, the consequences of failing to execute these skills (specifically ascent rates and holding stops) are more severe. The maximum depth has gone from 150' to 200' and that has certain consequences (increased gas consumption, less time to work our problems) but of course I've not gone below 150' which I'm already certified for on air. He in the mix makes you colder but the solution is taught in a classroom... don't use mix for drysuit inflation, get an argon bottle (and make life easy on yourself, fill it with air).

Now, trimix with multiple gas switches is a whole different animal. The complexity of the dive and the contingency planning just went above what I even care to guess at. I don't believe any self-training can prepare the diver for diving in the 200 - 300' range.

On the reverse side of this argument that not all classes require anything but theory is that just because you've had the card doesn't mean you have the experience to do the dives. For example I'm adv nitrox certified. It was done in the context of cave diving where deco is performed in a very controlled environment with no current (well, there's current, you just know what it's doing ahead of time) and sometimes even a bottom that is at your stop depth much like a lake. I do not believe I'm qualified to do deco diving in the open ocean where you may be blown off the wreck/reef and you have to shoot a bag while you are dealing with currents.

I can assess my own skills and evaluate if I have the know-how to execute a given dive with a certain set of equipment. I don't need a plastic card to tell me if I can do so-and-so and I don't let a plastic card tell me I can do such-and-such. This is because my skills may be different than the guy designing the classes for TDI, IANTD, PADI, etc anticipated and so while I can in certain areas dive beyond my certification in other areas I don't feel comfortable diving to the limits of my certification.

If you, as a fully certified entry-level trimix diver, can point out to me what skills that are involved in diving say 21/35 down to 150' that aren't required to dive air down to 150' with a deco bottle I may reconsider if I believe this is a skill I've not mastered.

 

[texdiveguy]

Not my point at all. If someone prefers that method of learning, why put him down?

I did not put down the self study of acdm.s....I have 'stated' that I to study on my own,,,always! Study is good.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Yea 'times past'..... I remember when men were men, and scuba 'skin' diving classes were very 'navy' in content.....and much of your learning was through trial and error,,,,so happy the scuba industry has grown in its teaching methods. Now those were the days or 'big' Dacor knives and cotton bp webbing-'j' valves- no SPG's,,,maybe a rope with markings-day after day of classwork and tables,,,,,yep the good old days.

Not "good old days". GOOD NEW DAYS! Most of the things I talk about that make learning and teaching diving easier have never been taught in entry level classes and some agencies don't teach them at all in any class even at the insructor level. That's why it's all such a big secret. I'm not suggesting going backward at all but forward.

 

[texdiveguy]

If you, as a fully certified entry-level trimix diver, can point out to me what skills that are involved in diving say 21/35 down to 150' that aren't required to dive air down to 150' with a deco bottle I may reconsider if I believe this is a skill I've not mastered.

I found the trimix level of training both from the acdms and field work/dives much more intense.....it has to be. I have completed adv. nitrox and deco procd.,,,,they were challenging and informative,,,trimix level is the next step,,,,I am 4 dives away from adv. trimix which I should have wrapped up soon......you are correct in your assumptions that handling multiple bottles and switchs is more complex--that goes without saying,,,having done actual multi bottle practicals in prep, I can say that with conviction. Task loading in trimix is much more involved than adv. nitrox and extended range. I once thought drag racing was just pushing the pedal through the floor---then I got involved in it---I was wrong,,,, it took study/classwork and practicals/practice. All I can say is until you have gone thru a well instructed trimix level program you really won't know.

 

[texdiveguy]

Not "good old days". GOOD NEW DAYS! Most of the things I talk about that make learning and teaching diving easier have never been taught in entry level classes and some agencies don't teach them at all in any class even at the insructor level. That's why it's all such a big secret. I'm not suggesting going backward at all but forward.

Mike... things have gone forward.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Mike... things have gone forward.

NO. They cut out the militaristic physical training but they haven't added the good stuff. they still teach diving like the BC was just invented and hasn't been fully integrated into training yet with students spending most of the time on their knees and never being required to demonstrate that they can do them midwater where they need to be done.

All they've done is remove things. They haven't added anything of substance. I'd call that going backwards.