PADI Master Diver Certification

[Debraw]

Why bother? Look up any number of threads of PADI versus anyone.

 

[loosebits]

..deleted... too mean - even for me.

 

[TxHockeyGuy]

My personal take on the PADI Master diver is that it is more of a marketting thing than anything else. Does that mean it has no value? Absolutely not. Only PADI course I've ever taken was the peak performance buoyancy specialty. I got 2 dives, for exactly 20 minutes with a 20 minute in the water surface interval between them, the exact PADI minimum standards. If I got a master diver card with instruction like that I think it would be worth very little. But if you had an instructor who actually worked with you I would think you would get a lot out of those specialties and that master diver card would actually mean something. The problem like any other certification/card is that it is only as good as the instruction given.

 

[loosebits]

Peak Performance Buoyancy aka "What You Should Have Learned in OW But They Were Too Lazy to Teach You"

I'm sure we will soon have:

Advanced Mask Clearing, OOA Diver Rescue Specialist and Advanced Gauge and Octopus Clipper (later to be redone as two classes). Of course the advantage to all this is you can get your OW card in half-an-hour and $25.


By the way, did you learn buoyancy control in 40 mins?

 

[texdiveguy]

Rand,,, the Peak Performance Buoyancy class is really not a bad thing for newbie divers whom may have forgotten what they learned in the O/W level program. If conducted well it does lend a bit of refresher and new skills to a beginning diver. That said,,,I think that this coupled with repetative diving over time is the main way we all learn PPB.

 

[TwoBitTxn]

If someone wants to buy a card, so what. For some people, its a goal to attain. Some people need that. Some people collect cert cards, we have all met people like that.

Some people collect college degrees. Most call people like that career students.

It has become so easy to bash PADI. I get tired of it too. I can empathize with Walter, because he was on the receiving end of a frivolous law suit.

Damsel, I agree with you, it would be nice if there were some tighter restrictions on the Master card. Just becuse someone has completed 5 specialties does it really mean he or she has mastered anything? What does a Master Scuba Diver look like?

I'll shut up now.

TwoBit

 

[loosebits]

Rand,,, the Peak Performance Buoyancy class is really not a bad thing for newbie divers whom may have forgotten what they learned in the O/W level program. If conducted well it does lend a bit of refresher and new skills to a beginning diver. That said,,,I think that this coupled with repetative diving over time is the main way we all learn PPB.

Hmm, I found good buoyancy control kind of like riding a bike. I got out of diving for six years or so and I didn't need to re-learn it. I assume you've done the same (certified since 71 but around the same number of dives as me).. did you find you needed to relearn proper buoyancy?

Regardless, decent buoyancy control should be a skill that a diver learns before leaving the pool. Obviously it isn't as newly carded divers are notorious for plowing through the bottom like a roto-tiller.

I don't know all that many newly carded divers but here are some examples (everyone I knew since they got their OW, I'm not filtering anyone out):

My sister got certified about the same time I did at UTA. She got about 15 dives in then she went on a six year break just as I did. She had no problems with her buoyancy when we got back into the water.

My brother-in-law learned to dive at LSU five years ago. He hadn't been in the water since his certification dive. He decided to come to Akumal with us and do some reef dives. I was going to take him out to Terrell to give him a brush up. I was expecting the worse but he had no problem with his buoyancy, he just had a problem with swimming with his hands (oddly enough not to adjust his trim but rather to help move him through the water).

My mother learned to dive a couple of years ago. She took the standard class from a certain LDS (non SIS). When I took her diving for the first time, she was terrified. Once she got over that and we finished her dive, I asked her why she never added air to her BC. She said she was taught only to do that to help you float at the surface. A little off my point but her instruction was borderline criminal and she had no business being in the water when she got her card. On her certification dives, the instructor and one of the better students dragged her through the water (one held onto her BC, the other dragged her by the octo). Her first through tenth decent was butt first.

Rick and I have a couple of friends who we dove with a few times right after they got certified. One guy actually wasn't bad. It seems he had a knack for it. The other was a different story but after a little more time in the water he figured it out.

I remember either Luke or Willie on this board talking about their first dives after certification and how they were yo-yoing and couldn't stay at 15' without either sinking or heading for the surface.

My point is that I don't think most people are capable of learning how to dive after 6 - 10 hours in the pool (not sure what most agencies require) and it seems the trend is heading the wrong way with first three-day weekend classes and now two-day classes.

Everyone I know whose gone through a university program (my sister, her husband and myself) all learned basic skills such as good buoyancy and learned them well enough to retain them after years of not diving. As I recall, I had 21 hours of pool and 15 hours of lecture over a 16 week period. I wish somehow an LDS could offer that kind of class but unfortunately no one would show up (for one thing, it would cost $1400). Of course the student starting OW has no idea what all needs to be learned and that it can't be done over two days or even two weeks and so they just go take the cheapest, shortest class they can find so it's hard to blame them. I can't blame the LDS's either since if they don't offer the 2 day class, their competitor will. It's hard to blame the training agencies also since they are under the same pressures as the LDS's but when will it end? Two days is the current record. How long before the afternoon class? When will the max depth for an OW diver be 30'?

Of course there is something we as experienced divers can do. On forums like this one, we can help educate the prospective diver who may be lurking around that 2 days is not enough. We can tell them to find the shop that offers the longest, most expensive class, go sign up for it and give them a chance at the sale of your first set of gear.

For the diving professionals out there, when someone calls your shop asking for a class, make sure you explain to them that while they can take your two day class, they are cheating themselves and that all divers would benefit from more pool time and more extensive lectures that you offer in your three week class. If they think you are trying to sell them something they don't need, hell, link them here.

We need to make a market out there for the three and four week class or else your next dive buddy may have gotten his card at http://learn-to-dive.com.

Ok, rant over.

 

[texdiveguy]

Hmm, I found good buoyancy control kind of like riding a bike. I got out of diving for six years or so and I didn't need to re-learn it. I assume you've done the same (certified since 71 but around the same number of dives as me).. did you find you needed to relearn proper buoyancy?

Regardless, decent buoyancy control should be a skill that a diver learns before leaving the pool. Obviously it isn't as newly carded divers are notorious for plowing through the bottom like a roto-tiller.

I don't know all that many newly carded divers but here are some examples (everyone I knew since they got their OW, I'm not filtering anyone out):

My sister got certified about the same time I did at UTA. She got about 15 dives in then she went on a six year break just as I did. She had no problems with her buoyancy when we got back into the water.

My brother-in-law learned to dive at LSU five years ago. He hadn't been in the water since his certification dive. He decided to come to Akumal with us and do some reef dives. I was going to take him out to Terrell to give him a brush up. I was expecting the worse but he had no problem with his buoyancy, he just had a problem with swimming with his hands (oddly enough not to adjust his trim but rather to help move him through the water).

My mother learned to dive a couple of years ago. She took the standard class from a certain LDS (non SIS). When I took her diving for the first time, she was terrified. Once she got over that and we finished her dive, I asked her why she never added air to her BC. She said she was taught only to do that to help you float at the surface. A little off my point but her instruction was borderline criminal and she had no business being in the water when she got her card. On her certification dives, the instructor and one of the better students dragged her through the water (one held onto her BC, the other dragged her by the octo). Her first through tenth decent was butt first.

Rick and I have a couple of friends who we dove with a few times right after they got certified. One guy actually wasn't bad. It seems he had a knack for it. The other was a different story but after a little more time in the water he figured it out.

I remember either Luke or Willie on this board talking about their first dives after certification and how they were yo-yoing and couldn't stay at 15' without either sinking or heading for the surface.

My point is that I don't think most people are capable of learning how to dive after 6 - 10 hours in the pool (not sure what most agencies require) and it seems the trend is heading the wrong way with first three-day weekend classes and now two-day classes.

Everyone I know whose gone through a university program (my sister, her husband and myself) all learned basic skills such as good buoyancy and learned them well enough to retain them after years of not diving. As I recall, I had 21 hours of pool and 15 hours of lecture over a 16 week period. I wish somehow an LDS could offer that kind of class but unfortunately no one would show up (for one thing, it would cost $1400). Of course the student starting OW has no idea what all needs to be learned and that it can't be done over two days or even two weeks and so they just go take the cheapest, shortest class they can find so it's hard to blame them. I can't blame the LDS's either since if they don't offer the 2 day class, their competitor will. It's hard to blame the training agencies also since they are under the same pressures as the LDS's but when will it end? Two days is the current record. How long before the afternoon class? When will the max depth for an OW diver be 30'?

Of course there is something we as experienced divers can do. On forums like this one, we can help educate the prospective diver who may be lurking around that 2 days is not enough. We can tell them to find the shop that offers the longest, most expensive class, go sign up for it and give them a chance at the sale of your first set of gear.

For the diving professionals out there, when someone calls your shop asking for a class, make sure you explain to them that while they can take your two day class, they are cheating themselves and that all divers would benefit from more pool time and more extensive lectures that you offer in your three week class. If they think you are trying to sell them something they don't need, hell, link them here.

Ok, rant over.

I am very much pleased your family did well in their dives after so much time away from diving (this is a good thing)....the fact of the matter is that the PBB class is a nice offer for a new diver or one getting back into diving after a laps. For most folks it allows them instruction in the basics they may be rusty on. Whether conducted in a pool setting or a local pond,,it does help most folks. I can't speak for other training agency programs, but PADI is not bad for the cost and time. I know there is a group of divers out there that think learning is done by simply reading a few books and going out with a buddy and trying to work through the material themselves....that is cool in practice on some things,,,,but PPB is a great offer for a diver to work with in a formal setting and then off on their own as they gain experience. I don't believe fully that you trully have a grasp on what the average PADI run program really is----unless I am mistaken you are a product of the NAUI system,,,and further,,,unless I am wrong, you are not a 'Pro' level diver whom has worked with new and experienced divers both in actual training of scuba skills....so I question your knowlegable insights into such matters....but please correct me on the above so I might be better informed.....and please take no offense, but trully I think until you have been there and done that,,,,you really don't have a clue.

 

[amascuba]

One of the best students I've seen come out of a class ended up having something like 30+ hours of pool time over a period of 4 months. He started out very timid of the water, had some real phobia's with getting water in his nose, and to make matter's even worse he was a nose breather. His first pool session he panicked when having to do mask clearing skills.

The instructor worked with him a little bit during every pool session and when she had to work with the class as a whole she had myself watch him as he layed on the bottom breathing or swam around. If I remember right, five open water classes went through before he ended up finishing his certification. I got to watch him during his last open water dive and you would not be able to tell that he wasn't even certified yet. He is one of the most calm, collected, and graceful divers I have seen with as little experience as he has. Since then he's gone off to florida and other destinations to dive with his daughter, who had been certified previously before he even started the course and he loves it. He even offered to teach me how to fly a plane at a discounted price. I might end up taking him up on that sometime. He's definitely one of the better success stories that I've witnessed in the scuba industry and show's how much can be accomplished with patience and practice in the pool.

 

[FIXXERVI6]

I don't believe fully that you trully have a grasp on what the average PADI run program really is----unless I am mistaken you are a product of the NAUI system,,,and further ...... ,,,,you really don't have a clue.

Padi, Naui, SSI, who cares who is doing the teaching, no program is better than the other, the "padi run program" cranks out the same express divers as the other express courses I don't care what agency is on the card, and just because the sun sets and rises in padi's back yard doesn't mean they crank out better divers out of an express class, get over this padi thing, its a dive training in general thing

When I see divers walking on reefs, it makes me sick

When I hear of divers bodies being recovered on their first couple of dives in easy OW and find out they had an "express" class and death was not due to natural causes, it makes me sick

When I see a silt cloud the size of texas roll into a cave in akumal behind a group of OW Cavern tour divers plowing up the bottom it makes me sick

When I'm standing in a dive shop and I hear someone call the shop and say how fast can I get certified and I hear the answer, it makes me sick

When I'm on a dive boat and I hear an "expert" talk up ankle weights then watch them go through the water vertical kicking everything under them, it makes me sick

When I hit the water and see that 80% of everyone in the water doesn't have proper trim, don't stay with their buddies, can't kick properly, I'm reminded at just how good Padi is, and Naui, and SSI, but I can tell you freind PADI is cranking out a LOT of those divers, and if that is the resault of their awsome program, you can keep it.

I don't need to be a professional to look around at the quality of divers that are being cranked out like a factory.

I don't believe peak performance is targeted to divers needing a refresher, but I'm not a prof. in the industry so hey, I could be wrong.

I don't beleive Rand is simply "attacking" Padi here, its dive training in general, I don't care how good a program is, or how good the instructor is, no diver is going to come out of an express OW class and be ready to dive properly, this is not a Padi bash, so relax.

My point to this post is Padi so no better than the rest, Naui, SSI, Padi are all guilty of the same thing, cranking out divers that shouldn't be in the water and you don't have to be a prof. I don't care how good "the padi run program really is" becaues if it was really ALL THAT then I would see a lot more divers in the water that know how to dive safely and not destroy the environment.

But hey I'm not a professional, so I must not have a clue either, so I'm just stating what I see, and I don't see Padi divers as being any better than the rest.